Panzer Corps AA, immersion can kill you

[Jajusha]

So lately i have seen several posts (on different threads) on how popular the SP flaks are when locked directly on panzer corps. As far as i'm aware, there is no particular advantage of having a SP flak instead of a regular Flak Battalion SU attached to a Panzer Corps, but for immersions sake, one might want to do it.

Checking the TOEs and Production screens, one can reach an alarming conclusion: Immersion can kill you (or your panzers). In other words,the more you use the SP flak Support units, the worst your flak fire(and air defense) on the panzer corps will be.

Why?
The available SP flak SUs in a 41 campaign are:

• SP Flak Company
• Motorized Flak Battalion
• SP Light Flak Battalion

Let's take a closer look at these 3:

The SP Flak company:
With a TOE of 10 SP Flak and 9 Support.
These 10 SP Flak will be from a pool of 3 possible units, the SdKfz-10/4, the 6/2 or the 7/1.
Any of these 3 SdKfz units have a Production Capacity (CAP) of 3 to 1, meaning, you only get 3 to 1 built per turn.
You start the 41 campaign with 27 of these SU, most of them (216 out of 270) SdKfz-10/4 (CAP = 2).
In other words, the units that fuel the SP Flak company are of slow and rare production. The more you commit them to battle the more it will take them to refill their TOE and the weaker their contribution in air defense will be.
Putting them in a position where they join most battles (At Corps level or directly attached to a Panzer division) will ensure they swift and fast destruction until only an empty frame remains.

The Motorized Flak Battalion
With a TOE of 8 Medium Flak, 17 Light Flak, 10 SP Flak and 16 Support units.
Examining this TOE and our German production, we can see that our Medium Flak is the 88mm AA Gun (Armament produced), the Light Flak is from a pool of 3 (20mm AA, 20mm Quad AA, 37mm AA, but all of them are Armament produced) and the 10 SP Flak are from CAP factories (see the SP Flak company).
Without a doubt, this is a much better SU to have in the front of battle protecting the valuable Panzers. Not only does it pack more punch then the SP Flak Company, most of its firepower comes from the 15 ARM produced flak guns.
What does this translate to? You are able to replace the losses of these ARM produced flak guns much more easily, and while your SdKfz numbers will go down, you will be spending ARM points to replace any losses to the 88's and 20/37mm's.
Only downside is that you start the 41 campaign with only 12 Motorized Flak Battalion.

The SP Light Flak Battalion
With a TOE of 36 SP flak and 41 Support, this is the ultimate chewer of AA CAP factories.
Using the same 3 SdKfz of the SP Flak Company and Motorized Flak Battalion, but 36 of them per SU, a bad battle result can mean months of factory production to replenish the losses.
You also start with 9 of these SU's but because their losses are so hard to replace, one must use them wisely.

I didn't touch the LW Mixed Flak Battalion, LW Light Flak Battalion and LW Motorized Flak Battalion in the original post. Updating it now:

LW Mixed Flak Battalion
With a TOE of 12 Medium Flak (88s) and 45 Light Flak (20 and 37mms).
Packing 57 AA guns, and 37 SU's, totaling around 2000 AA guns at the start of a 41 campaign, this is the most widespread and powerfull AA option a German player has at its disposal. It is also 100% Armaments (and manpower don't forget that) produced, you won't be tied to to SdKfz AA production to refit these units

LW Motorized Flak Battalion
With a TOE of 36 Light Flak (20 and 37mms).
The small cousin of the Mixed Flak Battatlion. Packing almost 40 light flaks (but no 88s) you start the 41 campaign with 14 of these SU, totaling 500 guns.
100% ARM fueled, and a decent option for AA duty near the front.

LW Light Flak Battalion
With a TOE of 27 Light Flak (20 and 37mms).
The even small cousin of the Mixed Flak Battalion, you only start with 4 of these SU's.
Nonetheless, they are also a 100% Armament option for your AA needs. If your already using the two other ARM options but still need an extra protection, this is the SU to take

[Q-Ball]

Even worse for the SP Flak Companies, if you look at the TOE of Panzer Divisions, they all expand in 1942 to include more SP Flak. You have a surplus in the pool at start, but that surplus will quickly turn to a deficit from the TOE expansion. Becuase they are in the TOE of Panzer divisions, losses will also rise in 1942. Production won't keep up.

This is why I think the SP Flak Companies should either a) be attached at Army HQ or Luftwaffe, where they are less likely or unlikely to be committed to ground combat, or b) should be disbanded.

I end up slowly disbanding them over time.

Also, you forgot the MIXED FLAK BATTALIONS. There are quite a few of those

[heliodorus04]

Great analysis.  Thanks for posting this.

[CarnageINC]

Unfortunately Q-Ball is on to something.  I use to get into the whole mechanized Panzer Corps thing but it just doesn't help that critical slots can be taken up by the weaker AA SU's when committing to battle.  I do still have standards that I won't post anything such as siege guns to panzer corps, I just can't see how this would be close to realistic give the mobility of them and the support they need.

[Jajusha]

Added the other AA SU's. I think we can get a full picture now.

With little to no doubt, the LW Mixed Flak Battalion is the best and safest option you have at your disposal.
12X 88mm guns and a mix of 45X light flak, all armaments produced.
If you really want to have a SP or motorized AA with your panzer corps, a still decent option are the LW Motorized Flak Battalion

If you are in a position where ARM points are critically low and rifle squad production is a priority, i think the best option is just to remove your AA SU's from the panzer Corps. Panzer divisions in 42 have 32X Flak Sdkfz, 18X Light Flak and 8X 88's already

[Balou]

Does anyone know whether those 88 are strictly AA or will the engine use them as anti-Tank also ?

[Jajusha]

ORIGINAL: Balou

Does anyone know whether those 88 are strictly AA or will the engine use them as anti-Tank also ?

If you watch combat reports in detail 5 or above, you will see the AA guns being used to destroy soviet elements (even the 20mm's).

So yes, the engine does use them not only as anti-Tank but also anti-personnel.

[KenchiSulla]

Is there a historic base for disbanding those SP flak units or is there no way to tell? Perhaps losses to these units in real life were lower then the game is having..

[Kronolog]

It's a shame that one can't reinforce the SP-Flak units with all the GAZ-AAMG that you capture. Perhaps it's not historical, but hey, at least then they could be put to use and not simply rust away in the pool.

[ComradeP]

One problem you face is that engagement distances rather quickly move to ~50 meters for most elements, including most AA. That's odd, but with the current engine there isn't too much we can do about that without screwing up the supply system (longer engagement ranges=more supply used), which we're now trying to make more sensible.

I mostly disband the companies and the (SP) light FlaK battalions if I can.

As Q-Ball already said, Panzer division TOE's already contain SPAA in 1941, and motorized divisions and Panzer divisions will start to require a lot more in 1942.

I also simply don't like spending a support unit slot on small units in any case, especially with the reduction of the amount of elements that can fire of more than a certain amount of units are used.