China Land OB: Both RED and ROC

[elcid]

The land order of battle in China is gigantic, complex and not always easy to research. I write on the modern PLA, and collect
materials on its unit histories, as one means to build an understanding of it in the present age. Any AE representation of
Chinese military forces must be a compromise - in part due to slot limitations - and in part because of limited time to do research.
Even if one has a lot of time, and a lot of material, it will not due to spend decades on this one item. Finally, game code has some
special features in re China - for which reason it isn't entirely necessary to have every reinforcement in the OB. Units will tend
to come back - becoming in effect the reinforcements. All comments below are made in this context: the AE OB is almost a matter
of art - chosing what to include - and what characteristics to give it? Even so, purists may find some of my comments useful to
a better order of battle than is in stock. Note also that some units (and locations) are borrowed from Reluctant Admiral and from
other mods.

The Red Army is substantially misrepresented. It more or less includes two corps - the New 4th Army (smaller of the two) and the 18th
Group Army (which is a renamed 8th Route Army - as from 1938). For this reason, the 4th Corps (and/or Field Army) should be redesignated as Red - and assigned to the communist command. The 8th Route Army should be renamed - and the 18th corps (and/or field Army) should not be used. More on the corps - Field Army thing in the next post - on the ROC system. But there is also one more element: much of the Red Army was independent of division structures - and for that reason - the guerilla formations should be included. Extensive testing indicates that the RHS guerilla formations - with some daily supply in the UNIT - work fine in AE - and permit these small units to contest lines of communications even when deep in enemy territory. The Red ones are carefully crafted so daily supply = non-battle requirements if the unit is at full strength. Thus the unit will tend to grow to full size if inactive - faster if outside supply is available - and not to stockpile supplies greatly (which might feed other units in the hex). We do not include enough of these units - see the material below for an idea of numbes serving. But we have enough to be a problem - and add one more every year as a crude way to have the problem grow. The Red ones should have good leaders, but even without them the "staff officer" does remarkably well. The units tend to retreat under pressure - rather than to surrender - although when odds exceed 100:1 in land combat - they will surrender. Note that one division of the Red Army is not assigned its leader - as defined in the material below. The 129th should have Liu bocheng as CO. The 18th "army group" (group army) should have Yen Hsi-shan as leader. If assigned to the Red command the de facto Red control is preserved.

Eighth Route Army


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
















The Eighth Route Army (simplified Chinese: °Ë·¾ü; traditional Chinese: °Ë·܊; pinyin: b¨¡l¨´-j¨±n) was the larger of the two major Chinese communist forces that formed a unit of the National Revolutionary Army of the Republic of China which fought the Japanese from 1937 to 1945. In contrast to most of the National Revolutionary Army, it was controlled by the Communist Party of China and not the ruling Kuomintang. The Eighth Route Army was one of the main military forces of the Communist Party of China, active during the Chinese Civil War and the Second Sino-Japanese War. The political leader of the Communist Party of China was Mao Zedong, and their military leader was communist general Zhu De.





Eight Route Army in Shanxi, under Blue Sky with White Sun army flag.
The communists' Red Army (later the People's Liberation Army) had first been "formed" in 1927 when the Nationalist 27th Division mutinied. After ten years of fighting, though, in 1937, Japan invaded China proper. To counter this threat, the Communists and Nationalists formed the United Front (the anti-Japanese alliance between the Chinese Nationalists under Chiang Kai-shek and the Chinese Communists). Most Communist forces wore either Nationalist uniforms or civilian clothes.

The two main Communist forces were the New Fourth Army and the Eighth Route Army (the larger of the two), called such after their nominal designations in the Chinese national army. Consisting of three divisions (the 115th, the 120th, and the 129th, commanded by Lin Biao, He Long, and Liu Bocheng respectively, the 8th Route Army's main advantage during World War II was its ability to blend in with Japanese forces when behind enemy lines. Also, the Communist forces could easily attack Japanese supply lines and small garrisons. The 8th Route Army had also engaged in political and propaganda work, helping to increase communist support among the populace.

Formed in 1937 at the time of the second United Front, the 8th Route Army was headed by Mao Zedong's old comrade in arms Zhu De but was placed under the overall direction of the Nationalist government. In 1938 the 8th Route Army was reorganized as the 18th Army Group under the 3rd Military Region commanded by Nationalist Yen Hsi-shan. In practice, however, the army remained under Zhu De's control and operated independently of the Nationalists, especially after 1941, when relations between the Communists and Nationalists had deteriorated.

At the start of World War II, the 8th Route Army infiltrated itself behind Japanese lines in Northern China, where it established many bases of operations. It recruited Chinese semi-trained militia. The army grew from 30,000 troops in July 1937 to 156,000 in 1938 and 400,000 in 1940. Reduced to about 300,000 by the fierce fighting between 1941 and 1944, its size almost doubled to a total of 600,000 men in 1945.

Following the end of World War II, the 18th Army Group was incorporated into the new People's Liberation Army. Units from the former 8th Route Army were active in the 1948 capture of Manchuria (Northeast Provinces) from the Nationalists, which placed the communist forces in a position to take North China and turn the civil war in their favour.

[elcid]

The Chinese military nominally operated under a unified national system. Thus, local units, and Red units, were almost always given numbers inside the national scheme. Further - these formations were very much inside the ancient Asian tradition - preserved in China to this day. In China - and in Japan - an "army" corresponds to a Western corps. The ROC formally adopted corps nomenclature in 1938 - the Red Army did not until about the end of the century. But even after the formal change in names, traditional nomenclature was retained in pratice, in particular by local or famous units. For this reason, I have adopted a mixed presentation: corps is the default case, but a famous or local name will substitute for it. The local names are usually "field army" - for a formation with two divisions - or "group army" for a formation with three divisions.

One of the larger problems with the AE presentation is that group army is presented as if it were a command higher than corps - which is not the case ever. The "group army" IS the corps. Thus all group army HQ should be deleted - except the Central Reserve - which is indeed above corps level and something akin to an army HQ in the western sense. A Chinese army is similar to a Japanese Army - while a Chinese War Area is similar to a Japanese Area Army HQ - the terms probably being historically derived from each other. All corps should report to some War Area UNLESS they are Red - even if they are Warlordy troops or Provincial troops. These War Area HQ should be mobile - not static units. Indeed - most of the Chinese army is static - and this is not a good idea. But some things - base forces for example - and Warlord troops (OTHER than cavalry) as another example - should be (or should remain) static. Warlord troops are tied to their local area for support and language reasons - and except for cavalry - which did hire out to go on moblie campaigns (and were relatively small) - almost every Warlord formation is/should be static. Here we have renamed numbers of units as Warlordy units - following in the main the OB of Game Designer's Workshop War of Resistence. Similarly - numers of units bear provincial designations - from the same source - as well as scholarly materials. In many instances both are only represented in part - when the location involved is important - and no effort is made to be exhaustive of every last faction. However, warlordy troops shoud have leaders - unlike the two in stock. Similarly, all units should get leaders. However, few units should be static. In general, ROC and Provincial units are Restricted Permanant - but there are exceptions. The Chinese divisions (omitted from AE entirely) that form in India are unrestricted. Other units are Restricted Temporary. In rare ases, static may be appropriate.

All the War Area and Front commands are retained - but most are made mobile. Jingcha War Area and Central Reserve remain static.

1st to 3rd ROC Corps retain their names and are standard two division formations.
4th Corps renamed 4th Red New Field Army and is a standard two division formation with ROC type weapons (vice Russian weapons of
other Red units).
5th Corps renamed 5th ROC Route Army - partly because that name was used - and partly to indicate it has three divisions.
6th Corps renamed 6th ROC Heavy Corps to indicate 3 divisions.
7th ROC Corps is a standard two division field army.
8th ROC Provisional Llight Corps is used to indicate a later formation with fewer than normal heavy weapons.
[Note this unit may be fictional - but fits a pattern of 1st to 7th similar units - and might have been done after the 8th Route Army
was redesignated 18th Field Army. It is included assuming AE research is correct in this respect. All other 8th Corps not included.
9th Corps renamed 9th ROC Group Army (see 5th above for reasoning)
10th to 12 th retain their names and are standard.
13th renamed 13th Warlord Corps and retains static status. A Warlord Corps has very few heavy weapons.
14th renamed 14th US OB Corps - to indicate US weapons.
15th renamed 15th Shansi Light Corps - a Provincial unit.
16th Corps = normal
17th renamed 17th Shansi Light Corps
18th Corps deteted and its name is used by the former 8th Route Army.
19th and 20th and 21st = normal.

[elcid]

22nd = 22nd Hunan Light Corps
23rd = 23rd ROC Light Corps
24 to 27 = normal
28th = 28th Warlord Light Corps
29 & 30 = normal
31st = 31st ROC Heavy Corps (to indicate 3 division formation)
32nd = 32nd Hopei Field Army (because traditional name retained)
33 & 34th = normal
35th = 35th ROC Heavy Corps
36 & 37th = normal
38th = 38th Warlord Light Corps
39th = 39th ROC Light Corps
40th = normal
41st = 41st Hunan Field Army
42nd = normal
43rd = 43rd ROC Light Corps
44 to 49th = normal
50h = 50th Szechuan Corps
51st = 51st Manchu Light Corps
52nd = 52nd Manchu Field Army
53rd = 53rd Manchu Field Army
54 to 58th = normal
59th = 59th Hopei Heavy Corps (to indicate 3 division formation)
60 to 63rd = normal

[elcid]

64 & 65th = 64th and 65th Kwangtung Corps
66th = 66th Kwangtung Heavy Corps
67th = 67th Manchu Field Army
68th = normal
69th = 69th ROC Light Corps
70th = normal
71st = 71st US OB Corps
72 & 73rd = normal
74th = 74th ROC Heavy Corps
75th = 75th Hunan Field Army
76th = normal
77th = 77th Warlord Light Corps
78th normal
79 to 81st = normal
82nd = 82nd Moslem Field Army
83rd = 83rd ROC Light Corps
84th to 88th = normal
89th = 89th Szechuan Light Corps
90th = normal
91st = 91st Szechuan Corps
92 to 96th = normal
97th = 97th ROC US OB Corps
98th = normal
99th = deleted - the 9th Corps is renamed 99th in 1945

[elcid]

There also are ROC Provisional Corps, including
2nd, 3rd and 9th

Warlord Divisions, including
6th, 13th

Warlord Brigades, including
9th, 34th

Cavalry Corps, including
1st & 3rd Hopei
4th & 6th Warlord
5th Muslim
8th Szechuan

The Manchu Advance Corps - a standard field army

ROC Divisions including
1st & 2nd Reserve
28th, 32nd, 38th & 39th ROC New
28th, 36th, 49th, 71st, 88th, 93rd, 96th, 200th & 208th
55th Privisional
100th Muslim

ROC New US OB Corps, including
1st to 3rd and 6th

ROC New Light Corps, including
5th & 7th

ROC US OB Divisions formed in India (which can divide like US divisions)
22nd, 30th, 38th & 96th [All formed 1943 to 1945]

There are numbers of ROC and Red Guerilla Regiments - generally numbered - but including the named
Hupeh Guerilla Regiment - and they are all more comparable to weak battalions than to regiments of the multi-battalion kind.
They have almost no heavy weapons. Red guerilla units often have higher morale and better leaders than ROC units do.

[Nikademus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

[herwin]

Didn't the 5th, 6th, and 66th Armies intervene in Burma in 1942?

[Schanilec]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

Way to funny Nik.[:D][:D][:D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Your post messed up the symetry of a perfect stack of red balls.[:)]

[Schanilec]

This one time...at band camp....[8D]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Schanilec

This one time...at band camp....[8D]

Why the silliness? Elcid does have a reputation as knowledgable about the PLA in a different and good deal more serious community.

[Schanilec]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Schanilec

This one time...at band camp....[8D]

Why the silliness? Elcid does have a reputation as knowledgable about the PLA in a different and good deal more serious community.

Just a wee to much for the scope of such a great game.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: herwin

Didn't the 5th, 6th, and 66th Armies intervene in Burma in 1942?

Yes, of course. Sid's list (or most of it) seems to be the result of some kind of try to sort out the OOB for the Chinese Nationalist Army by trying to trace back the origins of (modern) PLA forces to Nationalist forces.

Well, nice try, but the results (most of them) are erroneous. Doesn't work this way when it comes to the Nationalist Army. It's a pity because Sid's efforts to draw up his list must have been copious.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: herwin

Didn't the 5th, 6th, and 66th Armies intervene in Burma in 1942?

Yes, of course. Sid's list (or most of it) seems to be the result of some kind of try to sort out the OOB for the Chinese Nationalist Army by trying to trace back the origins of (modern) PLA forces to Nationalist forces.

Well, nice try, but the results (most of them) are erroneous. Doesn't work this way when it comes to the Nationalist Army. It's a pity because Sid's efforts to draw up his list must have been copious.

He does know the modern PLA.

[US87891]

No he does not. Mr. Trevethen is nothing more than an amateur, self promoting internet blogger. He is not even known to, much less respected by, any organization whose brief is to study these things. Mr. Trevethen’s internet blogs are merely rewrites of commercially available information. Mr. Trevethen seems to be enthusiastic about China, but please do not confuse enthusiasm with knowledge. And do not confuse the Internet with reality.

[elcid]

ORIGINAL: herwin

Didn't the 5th, 6th, and 66th Armies intervene in Burma in 1942?

That sounds right. There were also the divisions formed in India - 4 I found and listed above - which served under SE Asia command.

[bigred]

Hi Sid.  Reading this quote am I correct to understand the red army in AE updated beta will operate w/out supply?

Extensive testing indicates that the RHS guerilla formations - with some daily supply in the UNIT - work fine in AE - and permit these small units to contest lines of communications even when deep in enemy territory. The Red ones are carefully crafted so daily supply = non-battle requirements if the unit is at full strength. Thus the unit will tend to grow to full size if inactive - faster if outside supply is available - and not to stockpile supplies greatly (which might feed other units in the hex).

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: bigred
Hi Sid.  Reading this quote am I correct to understand the red army in AE updated beta will operate w/out supply?

No you are not correct. Mr Trevethen is not a developer. Mr Trevethen never was a developer. The developers pay no attention to Mr Trevethen or his postings, either his public postings, or his so-called 'secret' communications. Mr Trevethen has nothing whatever to do with the Matrix Games title, developed by Henderson Field Designs, called WiTP-AE.

[elcid]

ORIGINAL: bigred

Hi Sid.  Reading this quote am I correct to understand the red army in AE updated beta will operate w/out supply?

Extensive testing indicates that the RHS guerilla formations - with some daily supply in the UNIT - work fine in AE - and permit these small units to contest lines of communications even when deep in enemy territory. The Red ones are carefully crafted so daily supply = non-battle requirements if the unit is at full strength. Thus the unit will tend to grow to full size if inactive - faster if outside supply is available - and not to stockpile supplies greatly (which might feed other units in the hex).

In RHS mods only - historically in WITP - and in future in AE -
guerilla units operate semi independently of supply. The typical case is that 2/3 of non-combat supply is available - so
a unit with no supply will eventually be about 67% strength - and it will tend to shrink in a combat situation. However,
it only nees external supply as a suppliment to build above that level - and for combat. It will never disappear. We have
Major Kim Il Sung leading a Korean Anti-Japanese unit, Two Viet Minh units (one lead by Giap), numbers of ROC units,
both communist and Dutch units in NEI (on different islands), and of course the Red Chinese.

It is these latter that are different - the Red Chinese are 100% supplied (but NOT combat supplied).

[elcid]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: bigred
Hi Sid.  Reading this quote am I correct to understand the red army in AE updated beta will operate w/out supply?

No you are not correct. Mr Trevethen is not a developer. Mr Trevethen never was a developer. The developers pay no attention to Mr Trevethen or his postings, either his public postings, or his so-called 'secret' communications. Mr Trevethen has nothing whatever to do with the Matrix Games title, developed by Henderson Field Designs, called WiTP-AE.

As stated above, these matters are not related to official AE scenarios. And, as far as it goes, I am not a developer of such scenarios.
Wether or not developers pay attention to me is another question: since UV days some of my suggestions have been adopted, starting
with being able to load fuel on AKs. Many things for which I was given immense static in the WITP era - they were "not important" or
even "impossible" - somehow managed to creep into AE - after we demonstrated the concept in RHS. But, quoting Jim Dunnigan, "good
designers shamelessly steal ideas from each other" - and indeed few can trace the precise origins of any idea they like. Who cares?
My interest is in a better product. And, since I am a simulator rather than a gamer, my perspective differs from that of developers of a
game within severe budget limitations. I can take the time to do things impractical operating under deadlines and business model goals.
What I do not chose to do is spend time in debate - never mind I have more than a little skill at it. My ideas are only for those who want them,
and I make no attempt to impose them on anyone who, for any reason, is not interested. AE is the finest engine of its kind yet developed. One
reason is that it is a platform we all are able to use to make mods for different purposes with. I assume readers of the design forum are
often going to make their own mod. I also assume there isn't much more development going to happen to AE - so I do not assume developers
are hunting for a lot of new work to do. I am not writing for developers - but for those interested in what might be done in their own mods -
or for users of RHS. I have been asked for years to do an AE/RHS - and I am doing a mini-version - which will not extend to 30 scenarios
as it did in WITP days - but might go to 3. The only really new idea I have demonstrated is seasonal pwhexe.dat files - and these work superbly.
I am somewhat surprised they were not built into AE to begin with, given the astonishing attention to such details as the names of pilots and commanders.
But surprised is not the same as critical: what one invests money or time in is properly for each to decide.