Why was German ratio gimped from 2.5 to 1 , to 1.25 to 1 42-45?

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Peltonx
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Why was German ratio gimped from 2.5 to 1 , to 1.25 to 1 42-45?

Post by Peltonx »

I lost more then the retreating routed Russian units? What are you guys tring to do? Make 100% sure the Germans can't attack during 42? I tried the first turn of summer attacking and won every time but I lost about the same as the defender.

The real kicker is that when the Russians attack and win with about same odds the German loses more then the Russian.

Am I missing something?

Is 2by 3 tring to screw the game? Who came up with the new losses ratio?

Germam attack and results.

Historical or are the Pigs flying again?

We take out 1v1=2v1, but we make attacking impossible after 41?

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by Peltonx »

More examples here

tm.asp?m=2851126&mpage=6



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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by stone10 »

Because you're a bad Axis player.

This is how my Axis opponent kick my ass.

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by Peltonx »

Thats 41 dum ass, read what poeple post not what fairytale your dreaming about.

42 not 41 dummy.

What you posted supports what I said, lol.

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by mmarquo »

Pelton,

How can you expect an attacker not to loss more than the defender every once in a while? Look at the final adjusted CV ratios and the losses rise/fall accordingly - the Axis attack was ~ 4:1 while the first Soviet attack ~ 6:1 and the second one ~ 2:1.

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by Toidi »

@Pelton

Posting like that, I'm afraid you are loosing your credibility...

In post from 11/3/2011 2:32:02 AM , you actually attacked during blizzard, not summer as stated in the post, and in town (I somehow find that clear+town is different to clear, but maybe that is superstition). Anyway, Germans are not that great attacking in blizzard (though I agree that the results is not that great). However, you attacked guards rifle corps - those guys have higher morale thus you inflicted lower losses. I found that losses depends on morale a lot. I don't know your morale - if it was not that great, that would explain everything...

In post 11/3/2011 2:35:13 AM , you shown examples of SU attacking and complain, about Germans who lost more than Russians. Actually, Russians attacked in snow, not blizzard. The SU also have huge advantage in guns and used guards corps in the mix which have high morale, so lower losses. Finally, in the second example, Russian player lost more than 1/5 of all the tanks put into attack (tanks were not guards, mind you). If that would happen to you in your blizzard attack, you would lose 170 tanks, not 56 [and in blizzard should be much more breakdowns]. Quite a difference eh? Also, the odds for the SU are much better than those for Germans in blizzard - 1:4.2 is actually much different to 1:5.7.

Finally, the amount of losses is depending on many more factors than just the combat odds, and you know it well; the morale of troops is most important. Thus the funnily low losses of the NKVD border regiments in 1.4.xx

Anyway, it appears to me that your arguments are not strong enough and not well substantiated. Even though I agree with you on many issues you point out (though I am a SU player, ironically), it seems to me that recently you started to stretch the truth too much. As such, I'm afraid, I will start soon ignoring your posts without real evaluation of merit, as many others do already... Trust me, by stretching the truth your arguments do not support anything and your voice will be ignored. Even worse, once you find a real issue nobody will listen. Actually, it already happens as I cannot say whether the issue you state above is real or not - I can only tell that the data you provided is not credible. But by providing not credible data, you make the whole issue to appear as at best unlikely.
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by darbycmcd »

Pelton, are you kidding? the first one, you attack in blizzard. you know what, it is bad to attack in blizzard. is that simple enough for you?
your soviet attack examples show how tough the germans really are. look at the force ratios. c. 5:1 arty for the sovs in the second, 15:1 in the first!!! my god, your guys are super tough to get near parity in losses. really pelton, i think you don't actually know much about military operations, you just read some of the early war histories (based on german accounts) of the east front and you like to find game exploits.
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by Peltonx »

As far as I know there are no mods during blizzards after 41/42.

During 41 there are different ratio for losses then during 42 to end of war.

Its about math and numbers politics.

1v1=2v1 was a joke and was nerfed.
old HQ buildup was a joke and was nerfed.
Air field bbombing was a joke and was nerfed

ect ect.

Being nice or being up front about issues has nothing to do with them being historical or non-historical. Its about math and simply is the ratio a reflection of historical losses or not. If someone posts something childish like Stone he should expect to get nuked.

I have heard all the ignore stuff the last three times and guess what, 1v1=2v1 was nerfed, HQ was nerfed and air spamming was nerfed.

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by KenchiSulla »

Pelton, these are not raw recruits you are attacking. You are attacking a slightly entrenched GUARDS RIFLE CORPS with supporting tanks, probably led by a decent commander (assumption). You have only small numerical superiority...

I think you should be happy with that ratio...
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by karonagames »

I have similar "ranting" posts in the development forums, when I got fixated about some of the combat results that were occurring in testing. In my case this did lead to the discovery of a major bug.

The lesson I learned was to never get upset about results in isolation - your result is one out of thousands. If this kind of result was happening thousands of times in a game then you may have a right to be concerned. In isolation, this kind of result is well within the kind of variance Gary likes to see in his games.

I did indeed stop playing for a while because I could not come to terms with the variance.
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by mmarquo »

Are you at peace now? :-)
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by karonagames »

Nearly! [:)]. I have started a 1941 GC PBEM(currently of Turn10), and although some of the combat results seem just as crazy as when I was testing, I am not losing sleep over them!
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by Klydon »

Good to see you again Big A, you have been missed. [:)]

Pelton, I can't offer an explanation about why those fights went the way they did, but especially for the blizzard one, I wonder how many elements were damaged that then became destroyed, upping the losses. Attacking with units that have a lot of damaged elements would increase attacker casualties I would think.
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by ComradeP »

Here we're completely on the same page, for a change, Pelton.

I've been reporting/complaining about high losses post-1941 for almost a year now, and the problem is in most cases high ROF elements causing silly amounts of losses (that goes for both sides, you don't want to know how much damage 4 FlaK Vierlings can do currently) partially due to engagement ranges almost always dropping to 50 meters for most elements (even SPAA).

It's the primary flaw of the combat system from my perspective, now that routing seems to be a bit more costly to the defender (but I'd still like some sort of chase/pursuit phase for AFV's) and Axis retreat losses for high morale units have been decreased.

As corps are loaded with mortars and SMG squads, they can inflict serious losses. There's not really any counter, aside from letting the Soviets attack you instead of you attacking them, or not attacking more than 3 Rifle divisions/1 Rifle corps.

As such, attacking can be suicidal for the Axis on the long term, even though the addition of Hiwi's has made things a bit easier.

Please don't quote me out of context on this, as I'm not saying that the combat system is broken post-1941, I'm saying that high ROF elements and rapidly decreasing engagement ranges cause issues with the combat system.

There's no easy way to fix this, as prolonging combat would require that the supply system is completely overhauled (not a bad thing per se), and that takes time.

Certain elements are, and have always been, performing much better than their historical counterparts whilst others, particularly machineguns and AFV's often perform poorly. Due to the rapidly decreasing engagement ranges during combat, MG's don't get to fire often and AFV's mostly soak up hits (still a good thing, though), they tend to cause only a small percentage of the casualties, regardless of how many are involved.

You can see both of these things for yourself when you watch a battle in high detail.

Battles tend to go something like:

-Air support arrives and can in some cases cause significant disruption.
-Artillery fires only a few shells, another problem.
-Medium ranged elements fire, mortars fire for the first time.
-Mortars fire again, short-medium ranged elements fire.
Attacker casualties are still fairly low at this stage, but rapidly mounting due to the mortars.
-Enemy infantry elements fire, Rifle squads have an extremely variable performance, but SMG squads nearly always go on a killing spree.
-Your infantry elements fire, provided they have decent morale/experience they will cause a fair amount of casualties. Your own high ROF elements cause high losses.
-Defenders retreat/rout or hold.
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Pelton, these are not raw recruits you are attacking. You are attacking a slightly entrenched GUARDS RIFLE CORPS with supporting tanks, probably led by a decent commander (assumption). You have only small numerical superiority...

I think you should be happy with that ratio...

Thats a good point, but Kamil has posted info also.

The ratio is not the same as with my game vs Hoooper or other poeple for that matter(42). Generally speaking when attacking with good armored formations before I would get a 2.5 to 1 ratio when attacking forts with high cv's.

The ratio now is close to 1.5 to 1. I was not attacking guards during summer to straighten lines an ratio was about 1.5 to 1.

This also speaks to Big A's point, this is not a 1 time thing. This is the trend, atleast in this game.

I am hoping that my game vs M60 will get to 42.

I thk TDV has dropped out of our game. 1 turn in 2 weeks. Hes lost 74 armament points and thats a huge hit now.

I have started another one but it be a while before or I should say IF we get to 42.

I have yet to get any feed back from any higher ups about the change or nno change to ratio.
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Here we're completely on the same page, for a change, Pelton.

I've been reporting/complaining about high losses post-1941 for almost a year now, and the problem is in most cases high ROF elements causing silly amounts of losses (that goes for both sides, you don't want to know how much damage 4 FlaK Vierlings can do currently) partially due to engagement ranges almost always dropping to 50 meters for most elements (even SPAA).

It's the primary flaw of the combat system from my perspective, now that routing seems to be a bit more costly to the defender (but I'd still like some sort of chase/pursuit phase for AFV's) and Axis retreat losses for high morale units have been decreased.

As corps are loaded with mortars and SMG squads, they can inflict serious losses. There's not really any counter, aside from letting the Soviets attack you instead of you attacking them, or not attacking more than 3 Rifle divisions/1 Rifle corps.

As such, attacking can be suicidal for the Axis on the long term, even though the addition of Hiwi's has made things a bit easier.

Please don't quote me out of context on this, as I'm not saying that the combat system is broken post-1941, I'm saying that high ROF elements and rapidly decreasing engagement ranges cause issues with the combat system.

There's no easy way to fix this, as prolonging combat would require that the supply system is completely overhauled (not a bad thing per se), and that takes time.

Certain elements are, and have always been, performing much better than their historical counterparts whilst others, particularly machineguns and AFV's often perform poorly. Due to the rapidly decreasing engagement ranges during combat, MG's don't get to fire often and AFV's mostly soak up hits (still a good thing, though), they tend to cause only a small percentage of the casualties, regardless of how many are involved.

You can see both of these things for yourself when you watch a battle in high detail.

Battles tend to go something like:

-Air support arrives and can in some cases cause significant disruption.
-Artillery fires only a few shells, another problem.
-Medium ranged elements fire, mortars fire for the first time.
-Mortars fire again, short-medium ranged elements fire.
Attacker casualties are still fairly low at this stage, but rapidly mounting due to the mortars.
-Enemy infantry elements fire, Rifle squads have an extremely variable performance, but SMG squads nearly always go on a killing spree.
-Your infantry elements fire, provided they have decent morale/experience they will cause a fair amount of casualties. Your own high ROF elements cause high losses.
-Defenders retreat/rout or hold.

Atleast the info is here now and hopefully some of you other guys will get to the summer of 42. then note can be compared and see if its an issue or not.
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
There's no easy way to fix this, as prolonging combat would require that the supply system is completely overhauled (not a bad thing per se), and that takes time.

Thanks for the post, I found it to be extremely informative and interesting.

I wonder if there wouldn't be a workaround to having to overhaul the supply system. If you guys want to "decompress" time a bit during tactical combat, why don't just decrease the ROF in a way proportional to the time decompression factor. I mean, if battles have twice as many phases, decrease ROF by half. I'm assuming that the side effect on the supply system is due to the increased ammo expenditure because of the combat taking longer.
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by Scook_99 »

This is where a battle export feature would be great. Every result in a spreadsheet format, to look for trends easily, not just having occasional screenshots, which can be subjective.
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by ComradeP »

I mean, if battles have twice as many phases, decrease ROF by half.

That would still mean the relative advantage of high ROF elements would be the same as it is now.
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
I mean, if battles have twice as many phases, decrease ROF by half.

That would still mean the relative advantage of high ROF elements would be the same as it is now.

Indeed, this was more about having low ROF ground elements more "chances" to fire while not requiring to tweak the supply system. As far as I understand, there are quite a few checks involved (experience, morale?, leader stats), so I find surprising that there are ground elements with such a high ROF as to become a problem. Or it is a problem with the Ground element "inherent" parameters?
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