On 8/24/1940 I just puppeted England (could this even happen in RL?). US is still at peace, but England is now at war with it's colonies, Iraq, and Russia. So we have the British homeland fighting against other British solders in other locations (and I assume the US, if and when it joins the party). Seriously? Someone somewhere thought this could truely happen in RL?
Given these events, I would have to say that ToF is really a totally fantasty game set in the WWII period versus a true historical simulation of the era. So if that is what the devs and company really wanted, they did a great job. If on the other hand, they were going for historical (or some simblance of) accuracy, then they have totally failed.
Depending on how the patch process goes, we will have see which direction they truely wanted to go. If the fantasy direction, Hitler was obsessed with the occult so there is definately a great deal of possibilities in that direction. It they want to try and go back toward the historical side, then I think they have a great deal of work to do to get there.
The game is still fun and I am still glad I bought it, but someone needs to make a business decision on what type of game they really want. A historical simulation this is not.
BTW I now have 1200+ PP from puppeting England. A Bomb in '43 anyone [X(]
Another obsevation from puppeting England. All my troops which were past Edingbourh were all put back into the 'To Be Deployed' pool. So I can now take the entire force that was in England and magicly transport them to the Eastern front in a WEEK. Without using a single point of strategic transfer. We must of captured the teleportation device the Brits had completed right before they fell [:D]. Magic and sic fi. As I said, a true fantasy game.
England is mine
Moderator: doomtrader
RE: England is mine
But nobody forced you to do that. You could have played with more historical choices, yourself, which would naturally have led to a more historical procession of events.
RE: England is mine
What historical choices exactly are you refering to? Not invading England? So you make a game on WWII tell the player that if they want a historical game, you have to follow the historical path? Why would anyone want to play Germany then? We all know how that ended up in RL.
Plus the fact that Russia attacked Germany in 1940. So there is no way you can even do that even if you wanted to. Even taking that aside, the Baltic states are still nuteral, Finland is stil at war in the summer of 1940. So please tell me how I could even begin to create a simblance of WWII unless I played every country involved just so all the correct choices were made?
Plus the fact that Russia attacked Germany in 1940. So there is no way you can even do that even if you wanted to. Even taking that aside, the Baltic states are still nuteral, Finland is stil at war in the summer of 1940. So please tell me how I could even begin to create a simblance of WWII unless I played every country involved just so all the correct choices were made?
RE: England is mine
Sounds like someone should go from very easy to very hard setting :O
"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
RE: England is mine
Operation Sea Lion is the weakest link in the game. I didn't vote for the current state of how easy it is to do it and succeed.
Its funny how you make a choice do something that was impossible in Real Life, Operation Sea Lion, but yet complain it is absurd to have the USA join the Allies when you make that choice.
Then you complain about Stalin declaring war upon you in 1940 because you did Operation Sea Lion.
I see conflicts in your statements.
Russia DOW is a perfect opportunity to stab Germany in the back, yet you complain it is not real.
I see conflicts in your statements.
It is very easy to cripple the German army if you perform Sea Lion. It just a matter of a few hours and testing.
Perhaps others will also ask to improve this aspect of the game.
Its funny how you make a choice do something that was impossible in Real Life, Operation Sea Lion, but yet complain it is absurd to have the USA join the Allies when you make that choice.
Then you complain about Stalin declaring war upon you in 1940 because you did Operation Sea Lion.
I see conflicts in your statements.
Russia DOW is a perfect opportunity to stab Germany in the back, yet you complain it is not real.
I see conflicts in your statements.
It is very easy to cripple the German army if you perform Sea Lion. It just a matter of a few hours and testing.
Perhaps others will also ask to improve this aspect of the game.
RE: England is mine
Russia would not have declared war if Germany invaded England in RL. Considering he had purged all his officers, Russia was in no shape to attack Germany. Geez read some history. I'm sorry to be so harsh in my comments but I have been playing games on this scale for a long time and have some idea of what I am talking about.
The GAME had Russia decalre war on me due to what I consider a bug. For some reason, when Russia declares war on Romaina (who was not even in the Axis at the time btw) automaticly instigates a war with Germany. Regardless of what Germany is doing in the West.
The deleraction of war was not a big deal as I still had enough troops on the border to invade. So far I have not seen a single problem that indicates I am 'crippled'. I have even started researching the A Bomb from my loot from England. I'll be happy to provide you with a save if you want.
As to difficult level goes, my expectation is to have some advantage over the AI at Normal and to be able do somewhat better that historical. Not crush everyone in sight.
No one has addressed the other issues I have raised.
- Teleporting units from one end of the map to another for free
- Allowing England to be puppeted so it is at war with itself
- The British navy to be absent from the channel while the troop/supply ships sail along
As I said before. I LIKE the game. I AM glad I bought it. It is just not anywhere close to being a historical simulation. Which is fine as far as I am concerned but others may not feel that way so they should know that.
One other issue you may need to examine is that each turn now the version of GB that is now at war with the English Union (?) have had messages pop up saying that it no longer wants to join the Allies and the percentage drops between 10-15 points. I have no idea what happens when it gets to zero, considering that the only Allied countries right now are Iraq and the English colonies. So if the colonies leave the Allies, will that mean that Iraq will then be the Allies leader [X(] ? Like I said fantasy land.
The GAME had Russia decalre war on me due to what I consider a bug. For some reason, when Russia declares war on Romaina (who was not even in the Axis at the time btw) automaticly instigates a war with Germany. Regardless of what Germany is doing in the West.
The deleraction of war was not a big deal as I still had enough troops on the border to invade. So far I have not seen a single problem that indicates I am 'crippled'. I have even started researching the A Bomb from my loot from England. I'll be happy to provide you with a save if you want.
As to difficult level goes, my expectation is to have some advantage over the AI at Normal and to be able do somewhat better that historical. Not crush everyone in sight.
No one has addressed the other issues I have raised.
- Teleporting units from one end of the map to another for free
- Allowing England to be puppeted so it is at war with itself
- The British navy to be absent from the channel while the troop/supply ships sail along
As I said before. I LIKE the game. I AM glad I bought it. It is just not anywhere close to being a historical simulation. Which is fine as far as I am concerned but others may not feel that way so they should know that.
One other issue you may need to examine is that each turn now the version of GB that is now at war with the English Union (?) have had messages pop up saying that it no longer wants to join the Allies and the percentage drops between 10-15 points. I have no idea what happens when it gets to zero, considering that the only Allied countries right now are Iraq and the English colonies. So if the colonies leave the Allies, will that mean that Iraq will then be the Allies leader [X(] ? Like I said fantasy land.
RE: England is mine
ORIGINAL: Numdydar
What historical choices exactly are you refering to? Not invading England? So you make a game on WWII tell the player that if they want a historical game, you have to follow the historical path? Why would anyone want to play Germany then? We all know how that ended up in RL.
Plus the fact that Russia attacked Germany in 1940. So there is no way you can even do that even if you wanted to. Even taking that aside, the Baltic states are still nuteral, Finland is stil at war in the summer of 1940. So please tell me how I could even begin to create a simblance of WWII unless I played every country involved just so all the correct choices were made?
It's simple. When I play, for instance, I like to play it historically. I don't invade the Low Countries in Oct 39. I wait till May 1940. I wait to take Yugoslavia in 41. I don't pour German units into North Africa, and so on. I enjoy it that way. Makes a more historical game. My choice. I don't see the problem.
RE: England is mine
- Teleporting units from one end of the map to another for free
This is the same for all similar games like HOI/HOI2
Anytime units are in another country's territory and there is a peace agreement the troops are deployed into the reserve pool.
- Allowing England to be puppeted so it is at war with itself
Same thing as above. This is what happens when an Alliance brakes up.
- The British navy to be absent from the channel while the troop/supply ships sail along
This is a technical issue. There is no way to stop a landing. Only thing to do is to program the difficulty against Germany once they land.
This is the same for all similar games like HOI/HOI2
Anytime units are in another country's territory and there is a peace agreement the troops are deployed into the reserve pool.
- Allowing England to be puppeted so it is at war with itself
Same thing as above. This is what happens when an Alliance brakes up.
- The British navy to be absent from the channel while the troop/supply ships sail along
This is a technical issue. There is no way to stop a landing. Only thing to do is to program the difficulty against Germany once they land.
RE: England is mine
Sorry to keep harping on this, but Russia would NOT have gone to war with Germany for ANY reason in 1940 PERIOD. I have no idea of why you think it sould happen in the game, game balance, see what would happen, etc.? Any other reason is fine with me for having Russia declare war, just do not claim it would have been 'historical' because it would not be.
If 'everyone' thought that Russia would have declared war in 1940, then every WWII Europe game ever made from the 60's on would have had some provision for that to occur. As none that I recall (and I have played a lot of different flavors of these type of games), then the ponderance of evidence would suggest that it was not historically plasable for Russia to do that.
Now if there were too few German troops on the border, that could be a valid trigger, but as I had plenty on the border, that would not have worked.
Again Stalin HATED the West. He loved the fact that there were fighting each other. He would have wanted that to last as long as possible. He sure would not have put his own country at risk just because France and the low countries were attacked in 39 versus 40 and England invaded.
The last item as to why this would not have occured is that Russia had just finished up a civil war. There were huge groups of people that were looking for a reason to start it up again (Ukraine anyone). The major reason that Russia was able to fight off Germany in RL was, to a large part, beacuse Germay attacked Russia. Not the other way around.
With Russia decalring war first (AND breaking a treaty to do it) would have caused major issues with civil disorder. Germany could have used that to a great effect, promising to free the Ukraine, etc. So unless this increase in discent AND the pentaly of breaking a valid treaty is somewhere hidden in the code,having Russia produce as if Germay had attacked is VERY unhistorical.
Remember that even at this point in history, countries needed a casis beli to break treaties and attack. Romping over the West as Germany would not have risen to that level to justify to the Russian populace that breaking the treaty and going to war was vaild. This breaking would also have have very negitive reactions from the countries around Russia, like Turkey. Plus I imagine the US would not have looked kindly on Russia doing this either so I doubt any lend lease would have come their way.
So unless you are going to massively change how the diplomancy works when something like this happens to punish Russia for breaking her treatry for no good reason (they are not an Allied country so have no reason to 'help' the West), then having them attack in 1940 of what Germany does (or does not do) is absurd.
So the best we can do at this point is to agree to disagree.
If 'everyone' thought that Russia would have declared war in 1940, then every WWII Europe game ever made from the 60's on would have had some provision for that to occur. As none that I recall (and I have played a lot of different flavors of these type of games), then the ponderance of evidence would suggest that it was not historically plasable for Russia to do that.
Now if there were too few German troops on the border, that could be a valid trigger, but as I had plenty on the border, that would not have worked.
Again Stalin HATED the West. He loved the fact that there were fighting each other. He would have wanted that to last as long as possible. He sure would not have put his own country at risk just because France and the low countries were attacked in 39 versus 40 and England invaded.
The last item as to why this would not have occured is that Russia had just finished up a civil war. There were huge groups of people that were looking for a reason to start it up again (Ukraine anyone). The major reason that Russia was able to fight off Germany in RL was, to a large part, beacuse Germay attacked Russia. Not the other way around.
With Russia decalring war first (AND breaking a treaty to do it) would have caused major issues with civil disorder. Germany could have used that to a great effect, promising to free the Ukraine, etc. So unless this increase in discent AND the pentaly of breaking a valid treaty is somewhere hidden in the code,having Russia produce as if Germay had attacked is VERY unhistorical.
Remember that even at this point in history, countries needed a casis beli to break treaties and attack. Romping over the West as Germany would not have risen to that level to justify to the Russian populace that breaking the treaty and going to war was vaild. This breaking would also have have very negitive reactions from the countries around Russia, like Turkey. Plus I imagine the US would not have looked kindly on Russia doing this either so I doubt any lend lease would have come their way.
So unless you are going to massively change how the diplomancy works when something like this happens to punish Russia for breaking her treatry for no good reason (they are not an Allied country so have no reason to 'help' the West), then having them attack in 1940 of what Germany does (or does not do) is absurd.
So the best we can do at this point is to agree to disagree.
RE: England is mine
ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Sorry to keep harping on this, but Russia would NOT have gone to war with Germany for ANY reason in 1940 PERIOD. I have no idea of why you think it sould happen in the game, game balance, see what would happen, etc.? Any other reason is fine with me for having Russia declare war, just do not claim it would have been 'historical' because it would not be.
Not necessarily true. A recent book by a Russian author claims that Stalin was preparing and positioning for an early war. It's one of the reasons for the poor positioning of Soviet troops in 41.
Here's some revisionist stuff on Stalin's plans, as an example.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n6p40_Michaels.html
RE: England is mine
ORIGINAL: Razz
- Teleporting units from one end of the map to another for free
This is the same for all similar games like HOI/HOI2
Anytime units are in another country's territory and there is a peace agreement the troops are deployed into the reserve pool.
- Allowing England to be puppeted so it is at war with itself
Same thing as above. This is what happens when an Alliance brakes up.
- The British navy to be absent from the channel while the troop/supply ships sail along
This is a technical issue. There is no way to stop a landing. Only thing to do is to program the difficulty against Germany once they land.
In HoI the units are placed in the CLOSEST friendly provence to where they were located when the event took place. NOT put into the depoloyment pool. Then you actually have to move then to where you want them. In ToF, they go into the deployment pool where you can now place them ANYWHERE on the map you want. In a week. I hope you can see the difference between these two methods.
Sure I understand puppeting. It works great for small countries, Greece, etc. But England? Would that have even been a choice for them in RL?
It is not the puppeting that I have an issues with. It is the fact that with England, puppeting puts the English Union at WAR with other British subjects. I truely cannot imagine a situation where the now Nazi allies, English Union, are going to go off and start killing other British subjects. Or if the US attacks them that they are going to fight tooth and nail against the US? This is what I have difficult with in the game.
Again historically, England kept a significant protion of it's fleet in home waters for this very reason, to prevent an invasion. So what you appear to be saying is that the game is going to let the Jerries land by having the Amphs ignored by any fleets and/or planes nearby, and then have the game somehow crush them once ashore. Wow!
If the code cannot at this point even remotely model what would have occured, then I would much rather just have the game not allow Sea Lion at all. Not having major naval/air battles for control of the channel is a major issue imho. So if the model for naval action is too far gone to handle this, please do not cover it up with some other type of bandaid that makes things even more absurd.
RE: England is mine
ORIGINAL: gwgardner
ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Sorry to keep harping on this, but Russia would NOT have gone to war with Germany for ANY reason in 1940 PERIOD. I have no idea of why you think it sould happen in the game, game balance, see what would happen, etc.? Any other reason is fine with me for having Russia declare war, just do not claim it would have been 'historical' because it would not be.
Not necessarily true. A recent book by a Russian author claims that Stalin was preparing and positioning for an early war. It's one of the reasons for the poor positioning of Soviet troops in 41.
Here's some revisionist stuff on Stalin's plans, as an example.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n6p40_Michaels.html
From your article
In his speech of May 5, 1941, Stalin explained to graduate officers of military academies that the impending war would be fought offensively by Soviet forces, and that it would nonetheless be a just war because it would advance world socialism.
In 1941 he is talking about attacking Germany first not 1940. I do not see how this advances the viewpoint that a 1940 attack was wanted or desired by Russia.
RE: England is mine
I'm not going to argue with him. He needs to do more research. Stalin was preparing a first strike.
Back to the game... What did you pick for Ribbentrop Molotov Pact?
Back to the game... What did you pick for Ribbentrop Molotov Pact?
RE: England is mine
I would love to see some sources on Stalin wanting a 1940 attack as I have not seen any to date.
As I stated in another thread. I accepted it, Russia moved into Eastern Poland. I had about 50 strength points on the border and added to them over time.
As I stated in another thread. I accepted it, Russia moved into Eastern Poland. I had about 50 strength points on the border and added to them over time.
RE: England is mine
Your jumping to conclusions on the game just like your opinions on history.
Thread is getting off track.
Thread is getting off track.
RE: England is mine
I have tried to point out areas of the game that I think need help and explain my reasons as to why. These are, as you point out, are my opnions. Yiou can agree or disagee with them as you see fit. You think it is historically correct for Russia to declare war in 1940. I do not. So this is something we will just have to disagree on. No problem and we move on.
However, I really am interested in sources that can highlight that my understanding of what Stalin was considering in 1940. I was not trying to be sarcastic or anything else. If I came across that way I am sorry as that was not my intent. You obviously have some basis for having Russia attack in 1940 which I can only assume is based on readings/documentation that I am unaware of. So if you could share them, I can at least better understand why you feel so strong that a 1940 attack by Russia is plasiable history when I just do not see it based on my readings and experiences.
My conclusions on the game are based on my direct experiences so far. I do not have any knowledge of behind the scene data, coding, etc. I base these conclusions on a long time of playing these types of games, both board and computer versions. It is true that yours is different and does things that may not accurately reflect my understanding of how the game is working versus my peception of how it actually is working. While it is certainly within your right to say whatever you want and ignore my points of view. I was just hoping for a more detailed discussion than saying I am jumping to conclusions.
As this is my thread I guess I can take it off track if I want, right [:)]
However, I really am interested in sources that can highlight that my understanding of what Stalin was considering in 1940. I was not trying to be sarcastic or anything else. If I came across that way I am sorry as that was not my intent. You obviously have some basis for having Russia attack in 1940 which I can only assume is based on readings/documentation that I am unaware of. So if you could share them, I can at least better understand why you feel so strong that a 1940 attack by Russia is plasiable history when I just do not see it based on my readings and experiences.
My conclusions on the game are based on my direct experiences so far. I do not have any knowledge of behind the scene data, coding, etc. I base these conclusions on a long time of playing these types of games, both board and computer versions. It is true that yours is different and does things that may not accurately reflect my understanding of how the game is working versus my peception of how it actually is working. While it is certainly within your right to say whatever you want and ignore my points of view. I was just hoping for a more detailed discussion than saying I am jumping to conclusions.
As this is my thread I guess I can take it off track if I want, right [:)]
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cherryfunk
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RE: England is mine
Not in 1940 he wasn't.ORIGINAL: Razz
I'm not going to argue with him. He needs to do more research. Stalin was preparing a first strike.
Puppeting the UK and having it join the war seems dubious -- not even a defeated France joined the war, and the UK was far more committed to the fight against fascism. Is there a government in exile? Does the rest of the Commonwealth continue the fight?
RE: England is mine
Puppeting the UK and having it join the war seems dubious -- not even a defeated France joined the war, and the UK was far more committed to the fight against fascism. Is there a government in exile? Does the rest of the Commonwealth continue the fight?
VERY dubious. An English army helping Hitler in his eastern campaigns. We're not talking about a "division of freedom" composed of fanatical english nazis, but of the whole nation. Looks almost like a novel by Harry Turledove.
H. Barca,
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Rasputitsa
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RE: England is mine
ORIGINAL: Razz
- Teleporting units from one end of the map to another for free
This is the same for all similar games like HOI/HOI2
Anytime units are in another country's territory and there is a peace agreement the troops are deployed into the reserve pool.
Would it not be possible to introduce a delay before troops were placed in the pool, in a situation like this. They would be on leave, in transit, etc., and appear in the pool, 2 or 3, turns later.[:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: England is mine
Would it not be possible to introduce a delay before troops were placed in the pool, in a situation like this. They would be on leave, in transit, etc., and appear in the pool, 2 or 3, turns later.
Sounds like a good idea, maybe with an algorithm based on the distance from the unit to its capital
H. Barca,
Surplus Consuls Dispatcher
Surplus Consuls Dispatcher