Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

[rader]

Is it normal that a combat this big is so unbloody? Most of my air units aren't actually shooting at the enemy although they do show up in combat. It seems like there might be a choke point or limit to how many fighter (or fighter units) can actually participate in combat? Is this WAD? This is a very typical result lately.

Morning Air attack on Maebashi , at 113,59

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 118
A6M5c Zero x 45
A7M2 Sam x 38
J2M3 Jack x 60
N1K1-J George x 247
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 11
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 150
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 16
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 29
Ki-84a Frank x 167
Ki-100-I Tony x 29
Ki-102b Randy x 35



Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 176
B-29-1 Superfort x 130
P-38J Lightning x 17
P-51B Mustang x 43
F4U-1 Corsair x 32
F4U-1A Corsair x 45
F6F-3 Hellcat x 17


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 2 destroyed
A7M2 Sam: 1 destroyed
J2M3 Jack: 3 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 5 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
F4U-1A Corsair: 3 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 4 destroyed

*******Why so few destroyed (on both sides)? (Some of this is FOW, but the real numbers are probably only twice these or so). Out of about 2000 planes engaged on both sides, fewer than 40, or around 2% were destroyed...*******

A7M2 Sam factory hits 40
Ki-83 factory hits 3
N1K1-J George factory hits 4

****And these are always around double what the combat report says******

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
19 x P-51B Mustang sweeping at 20000 feet
9 x P-38J Lightning sweeping at 20000 feet
7 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
6 x F4U-1 Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
7 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
16 x F4U-1 Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
4 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
4 x F6F-3 Hellcat sweeping at 20000 feet *
2 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
4 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
4 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
12 x P-51B Mustang sweeping at 20000 feet

CAP engaged:
S-309 Hikotai with A6M5c Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
Ominato Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
S-901 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
Yokosuka Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
S-301 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 10 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
S-304 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 14 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
254 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
261 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
265 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (15 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
15 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
265 Ku S-2 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(24 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 24 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
S-316 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
S-601 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
302 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(15 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
S-603 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
331 Ku S-1 with A6M5c Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
341 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
343 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
343 Ku S-2 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
345 Ku S-2 with J2M3 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 15 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
S-351 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes

[JeffroK]

I think you have to look at the extension of the combat report which details each unit.
Are their reaction times too long?
Could be that they are tiring and taking longer to react.
What % settings have you got, are they CAP or LRCAP?
Has the RADAR been plugged in?
From memory, the bomber defensive fire may have been supressed a bit in a patch, cant remember if it happened or was only a conversation.
 
I also think that the IJAAF will really struggle to kock down enough escorted or heavily armed & armoured bombers until very late war aircraft arrive.
 
Not modelled, maybe very hard to do, is some sort of "Royal Observor Corps" where you get some sort of detection level for hexes overflown.
 

[wdolson]

Looking at the footer of the section before you deleted it, there were only a few fighters airborne when the Allies showed up.  Those large numbers include fighters scrambled when the raid was spotted, but they probably didn't engage before the Allies were out of range.  The bombers were attacking from 20000 feet and the estimated time until the Allies were over the target was only 4 minutes.  That doesn't give the bulk of the fighters a chance to get up to altitude.

Bill

[rader]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I think you have to look at the extension of the combat report which details each unit.
Are their reaction times too long?

>>>>Why would they take too long?

Could be that they are tiring and taking longer to react.
What % settings have you got, are they CAP or LRCAP?

>>>About a third of them were based in the hex (those were set to 50-60% CAP). The other 2/3 were outside the hex and set to 30CAP/30 LRCAP (most were from Tokyo, 1 hex away, and had Maebeshi as their target for LRCAP.

Has the RADAR been plugged in?

>>> Yes, the detection was 79 NM, so radar was working.

From memory, the bomber defensive fire may have been supressed a bit in a patch, cant remember if it happened or was only a conversation.

I also think that the IJAAF will really struggle to kock down enough escorted or heavily armed & armoured bombers until very late war aircraft arrive.

>>> Yes it's true, and this makes sense. Except my problem is not so much that they don't bring down bombers as that (according to the combat replay) many aren't even shooting at the bombers (or fighters).

Not modelled, maybe very hard to do, is some sort of "Royal Observor Corps" where you get some sort of detection level for hexes overflown.

[rader]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Looking at the footer of the section before you deleted it, there were only a few fighters airborne when the Allies showed up.  Those large numbers include fighters scrambled when the raid was spotted, but they probably didn't engage before the Allies were out of range.  The bombers were attacking from 20000 feet and the estimated time until the Allies were over the target was only 4 minutes.  That doesn't give the bulk of the fighters a chance to get up to altitude.

Bill

I put it back (pretty long...).

Why would this be? Shouldn't some be airborne from each group if they are on CAP or LRCAP over the target hex?

[rader]

By the way, just in case anyone is wondering (becauase people tend to take these posts the wrong way), I am most definitely not asking for any changes or complaining at all.

I am simply checking to see if it is WAD (most of the groups don't seem to fight even though they are included in the animation, and the majority were either on CAP or LCAP and set with Maebeshi as their target if on LRACP).

If it is WAD, I'm curious how I can get more planes to participate in combat. It dosen't seem like very much CAP is leaking into combat. I wonder if this is because the system assumes that if there are 100 or so planes in the target hex, it dosen't bother to leak in more... but if hundreds of planes are incomming, I definitely want them all to leak in.

[Erkki]

Yep I've noticed this too, theres is a limited number of A-A combat rounds... Probably per every early detection minute and depends on how many aircraft get to dive/climb to intercept. I've seen situations where 10 bombers meet almost 100 fighters already airborne but only about 30 get to engage - but at least often most of the rest engage after the bomb run.

I think its part of the "leaky cap" and has to do with modeling the sizes of airspace and formations. The other side of it is the "uncoordination" where sometimes a smaller, separated formation gets either mauled badly or leaks directly or almost directly through even a large CAP, if elements of the CAP are out of position(wrong alt) after the previous battle.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: rader

By the way, just in case anyone is wondering (becauase people tend to take these posts the wrong way), I am most definitely not asking for any changes or complaining at all.

I am simply checking to see if it is WAD (most of the groups don't seem to fight even though they are included in the animation, and the majority were either on CAP or LCAP and set with Maebeshi as their target if on LRACP).

If it is WAD, I'm curious how I can get more planes to participate in combat. It dosen't seem like very much CAP is leaking into combat. I wonder if this is because the system assumes that if there are 100 or so planes in the target hex, it dosen't bother to leak in more... but if hundreds of planes are incomming, I definitely want them all to leak in.

If you have units on LRCAP, they won't be covering their base hex, they will be covering something else. CAP also cycles. If you have 16 planes set to 100% CAP, not all are airborne at once. The 100% just means that 100% are available that day for CAP. If the base gets lots of warning, it's possible all CAP will be able to get airborne and engage, but that would be under perfect conditions.

Do you have radar at the base? If so how many units? Better radar coverage improves the lead time to scramble and vector CAP.

Is the base over stacked? Too many units on a base, or too many aircraft and the base won't be able to function at peak efficiency. Unit coordination will be poor and a lot of fighters are sitting on the taxi ways with their engines idling waiting to take off or waiting for a hard stand to park and refuel.

If most of the units are on LRCAP, even fewer will be available at each point in time because the unit will have part of the unit refueling and rearming, another part in transit to the LRCAP target, and finally some over the target at any point in time. If the unit is small and/or transit time is large, you will have gaps where there is no coverage.

I notice above the message says quite a few of the fighters are being recalled. That's usually an indication they aren't over their home base and are being called back to defend it. They may not be able to catch up with the bombers as they hit the target and withdraw. If they are low skill, they will probably be intimidated by aggressive moves on the part of enemy fighters and will turn away rather than engage.

Bill

[rader]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: rader

By the way, just in case anyone is wondering (becauase people tend to take these posts the wrong way), I am most definitely not asking for any changes or complaining at all.

I am simply checking to see if it is WAD (most of the groups don't seem to fight even though they are included in the animation, and the majority were either on CAP or LCAP and set with Maebeshi as their target if on LRACP).

If it is WAD, I'm curious how I can get more planes to participate in combat. It dosen't seem like very much CAP is leaking into combat. I wonder if this is because the system assumes that if there are 100 or so planes in the target hex, it dosen't bother to leak in more... but if hundreds of planes are incomming, I definitely want them all to leak in.

If you have units on LRCAP, they won't be covering their base hex, they will be covering something else. CAP also cycles. If you have 16 planes set to 100% CAP, not all are airborne at once. The 100% just means that 100% are available that day for CAP. If the base gets lots of warning, it's possible all CAP will be able to get airborne and engage, but that would be under perfect conditions.

Do you have radar at the base? If so how many units? Better radar coverage improves the lead time to scramble and vector CAP.

Is the base over stacked? Too many units on a base, or too many aircraft and the base won't be able to function at peak efficiency. Unit coordination will be poor and a lot of fighters are sitting on the taxi ways with their engines idling waiting to take off or waiting for a hard stand to park and refuel.

If most of the units are on LRCAP, even fewer will be available at each point in time because the unit will have part of the unit refueling and rearming, another part in transit to the LRCAP target, and finally some over the target at any point in time. If the unit is small and/or transit time is large, you will have gaps where there is no coverage.

I notice above the message says quite a few of the fighters are being recalled. That's usually an indication they aren't over their home base and are being called back to defend it. They may not be able to catch up with the bombers as they hit the target and withdraw. If they are low skill, they will probably be intimidated by aggressive moves on the part of enemy fighters and will turn away rather than engage.

Bill

Yes, but all the planes in the hex itself were on CAP only, not LRCAP (LRCAP was only for adjacent bases covering this one). Yes, the best radar (Tachi 7), and it worked acording to the report.

Not overstacked, but it's Maebeshi (lvl 6), so only ~300 fighters there. The rest were on LRAP in Tokyo next door (lvl 10, around 600 on 20-30% LRCAP with Maebeshi set as their target). Other bases also had LRACP with Maebeshi set as their target.

I think those ones that were being recalled were ones on LRCAP from Tokyo, but not 100% sure.

Also, it's interesting to note that not all the groups show up in the list of intercepting planes. Where are the A7Ms, Tojos, Franks, Tony, Nicks, and Randys? These were present and show up in numbers and in the animation, but don't show up in the list of groups engaging. The combat report truncated them out. I'm wondering if a similar thing is actually happening with the combat engine (truncates groups out above a certain number). Again, just a hypothesis. and even if tru, maybe this is WAD, because the rationale is that the situation is so confused that only a few can actually engage. If that's so, then huge bomber formations are nearly unassailable (but that could be the intention).

[rader]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Yep I've noticed this too, theres is a limited number of A-A combat rounds... Probably per every early detection minute and depends on how many aircraft get to dive/climb to intercept. I've seen situations where 10 bombers meet almost 100 fighters already airborne but only about 30 get to engage - but at least often most of the rest engage after the bomb run.

That's what I'm wondering. It seems like their might be (and I'm definitely not certain) a cap on battle time or something. So if you have planes beyond a certain amount, it breaks the engine and they don't fight. Not sure of this, just observing and wondering.

[LoBaron]

With these numbers you are way beyond the diminishing returns threshold, and I also assume
as Erkki a limit on attacks depending on detection range.

This seems to be a similar effect as what has been discussed with large CVTF death stars.

Think Schweinfurt raid, to get such a lot of fighters on bomber formations is extremely time consuming.

Beyond that:
Was this the only/first attack in the area in this phase? You might have a high ammount of those fighters
diverted to other intercept other attacks.
The planes shown in the combat replay are not per default the engaging fighters.

[PaxMondo]

Rader,

Very similar to the results I was getting routinely testing with the Downfall scenario. Large (+100) formations of 4E's are almost immune to IJ fighters. You only get them through attrition, which means you are losing factories at a high rate, and you cannot get them to abort no matter the odds. The best I could attain was to cost them ~10% losses each day (unescorted bombers), with 3:1 fighters (IJ best planes, 60/60 pilots). After 10 days or so, you have attritted them sufficiently that they can't get the +100 plane formations, and then they get quite a bit easier.

This testing was against the AI. It was also mosstly done against the B-29, where the attrition would eventually overcome the replacement rate and the long attack route added ops losses that also helped IJ.

I did a little testing using 4E's based in Korea, but quickly gave up. Using B-17's it was too easy to get +200 plane unescorted formations attacking. I never could get the IJ fighters to do more than scratch them. Allies would lose 4 - 5 planes/day, well below their replacement rates.

The testing was done to validate/create my end of war strategies for IJ. My conclusions were:

1. Nemo was correct: the only sure way to kill 4E's is on the ground.
2. Under no circumstance can IJ allow any 4E's in range except the B-29. It doesn't matter the cost to push them back, you simply must do it. Meaning in Downfall, you MUST retake Okinawa as IJ just like Nemo did.
3. Kami's are a crucial part of IJ's defense.

I do not mean to suggest that my testing was statistically significant or exhaustive, it wasn't intended or structured that way. I did spend about 9 (real time) months testing with that scenario though and these are my observations and conclusions.

[GreyJoy]

IMHO it depends on the dice you get.
 
Rader: we've now seen more than 2 months of strat bombing of Japan in our match and we had very different results.
10 days ago i got an uncoordinated strike against Maebashi. 500 4Es arrived without escort and before the sweep and your fighters killed more than 190 4Es....so i don't think the masses of 4Es are unstoppable...not at all.
I think this result you have showed here is pretty realistic.
You have 300 4Es escorted by more than 100 fighters. All my fighters are piloted by crack crews (60 avg exp and 75 a2a skill) and they are superior to their japanese counterparts.
The strong escort managed to keep the fighters busy enough in order to get the big box through.
Imho LRCAP is the wrong way to go. When i was on the other side of the hill (Karachi and Tulagi)  i discovered after many tests that the best thing to do in order to get the best efficient possible CAP is to put enough fighters in every base (non overstacking obviously), set 30% CAP, 10% Rest and let Radars and Leaky CAP do the rest. It worked well for me.
That said my bombers will always get through if protected...exactly just your 300 Helens always got through at Karachi when they were escorted by Zeros and after the daily 300 Tojos Sweep
 
my 0.2 cents

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
1. Nemo was correct: the only sure way to kill 4E's is on the ground.

Imho the best way to kill 4Es is AA heavy concentration and CAP when unescorted.

Rader knows what i'm talking about...

in 1942 i tried to send raids of B-17Es against Jodpur (India) from Karachi. At Jodpur Rader had an extraordinary AA concentration.... the Tojos were able to get the 7/10% of the bombers but the AA was so lethal that i lost nearly 60 4Es in 2 raids and had to abbandon once for all the idea of destroying his air force on the ground at Jodpur.

RAder's problem imho is that if the 4Es are escorted they can get through...and you cannot have 100 AA units in every base...so basically i think you have to accept the losses and try to attrit allies fighters and bombers as much as you can.... Rader knows that another bad-luck raid like the one where i lost 200 4Es and my offensive will be stopped for 3/4 months at least...

[rader]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

IMHO it depends on the dice you get.

Rader: we've now seen more than 2 months of strat bombing of Japan in our match and we had very different results.
10 days ago i got an uncoordinated strike against Maebashi. 500 4Es arrived without escort and before the sweep and your fighters killed more than 190 4Es....so i don't think the masses of 4Es are unstoppable...not at all.
I think this result you have showed here is pretty realistic.
You have 300 4Es escorted by more than 100 fighters. All my fighters are piloted by crack crews (60 avg exp and 75 a2a skill) and they are superior to their japanese counterparts.
The strong escort managed to keep the fighters busy enough in order to get the big box through.
Imho LRCAP is the wrong way to go. When i was on the other side of the hill (Karachi and Tulagi)  i discovered after many tests that the best thing to do in order to get the best efficient possible CAP is to put enough fighters in every base (non overstacking obviously), set 30% CAP, 10% Rest and let Radars and Leaky CAP do the rest. It worked well for me.
That said my bombers will always get through if protected...exactly just your 300 Helens always got through at Karachi when they were escorted by Zeros and after the daily 300 Tojos Sweep

my 0.2 cents

Thanks Greyjoy.

Trully I'm not complaining about the results, I'm just observing that most of the groups don't seem to fight even when theoretically engaged. And of course, I am trying to improve my performance to do the best I can.

I think you might be right about the die roll thing.. because it was a very similar situation to the previous raid on Maebeshi, but this time the CAP didn't do nearly as much. although I think last time, you didnt't have the escorts whcih helped a lot this time.

Although with Karachi, it was just one airbase pretty much alone so LRCAP wouldn't do much. Wouldn't LRCAP here tell them to fly and protect other bases in the area, making a better interlocking defense?

And at Karachi, although they did get through, they usually took horendous losses and I htink I had more of a numerical superiority there than you do here. But it could be that plane and pilot quality are at least part the that difference.

[rader]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Was this the only/first attack in the area in this phase? You might have a high ammount of those fighters
diverted to other intercept other attacks.
The planes shown in the combat replay are not per default the engaging fighters.

Ah, this might be it too... this was the first raid of the day, but there were subsequent raids and a sweep vs. the same base later in the phase. Are you saying that the engine has foresight (omniscience) and can see what raids are coming and may be saving fighters for some of these battles? I assumed it had memory and the number of planes engaged depended on the previous raids, but it is also possible that some of the units shown are going to be engaged later in a subsequent combat during the same round (i.e., they are being saved for their turn).

This could indeed be part of it.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: rader

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Was this the only/first attack in the area in this phase? You might have a high ammount of those fighters
diverted to other intercept other attacks.
The planes shown in the combat replay are not per default the engaging fighters.

Ah, this might be it too... this was the first raid of the day, but there were subsequent raids and a sweep vs. the same base later in the phase. Are you saying that the engine has foresight (omniscience) and can see what raids are coming and may be saving fighters for some of these battles? I assumed it had memory and the number of planes engaged depended on the previous raids, but it is also possible that some of the units shown are going to be engaged later in a subsequent combat during the same round (i.e., they are being saved for their turn).

This could indeed be part of it.

I am not sure about this.

What is a fact is that we have absolutely not indicator about the timegap between raids.
All we know is that the game engine obviousely cannot show simultaneous engagements, so even
if they happen to be simultaneous they would show as sequential.
What we also know is that the combat animations are detached from the time passing during
resolution phase. So while the combat is shown, the resolution phase "stops".

So it could well be that different raids of attacks on either the same or closely spaced targets
do happen at the same time splitting available CAP between those engagements.

Also I don´t know what the trigger for the combat animation to initiate is. If it is detection
range this can produce a situation like below:

Raid 1:

Morning Air attack on Maebashi , at 113,59

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Raid 2:

Morning Air attack on Maebashi , at 113,59

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

These two raids could happen at the same time, just shown in the sequential order because
the "first" raid was detected further out. This could lead to a situation where fighters are
already diverted to the "second" raid and so do not engage the "first".

Please note though that this could be pure fiction as I don´t know how the code works behind
the combat animation triggers.

GreyJoy cuold well be right that its simply a roll of the dice, if it is, the above is just an
interesting interpretation of an abstraction.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

IMHO it depends on the dice you get.

Rader: we've now seen more than 2 months of strat bombing of Japan in our match and we had very different results.
10 days ago i got an uncoordinated strike against Maebashi. 500 4Es arrived without escort and before the sweep and your fighters killed more than 190 4Es....so i don't think the masses of 4Es are unstoppable...not at all.
...

Wow. This is good news. In my testing I never saw this .... whew. [8D]

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

IMHO it depends on the dice you get.

Rader: we've now seen more than 2 months of strat bombing of Japan in our match and we had very different results.
10 days ago i got an uncoordinated strike against Maebashi. 500 4Es arrived without escort and before the sweep and your fighters killed more than 190 4Es....so i don't think the masses of 4Es are unstoppable...not at all.
...

Wow. This is good news. In my testing I never saw this .... whew. [8D]

Yes, Rader can confirm that....also in our last turn it happened again (even if in a lesser degree): my P-38s and P-51s forgot to take off in their escort role and decided to escort the sweep mission that FOLLOWED (and not preceeded) the bombers.... result? 200 4Es arrived on the target (Tsu) without a single fighter as escort and got bucthered by a CAP that was a lot lighter than the one who butchered the 200 4Es of last week.... yet again i lost 75 4Es in a single turn [:o][:o][:o][:o][:o]

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: rader

Is it normal that a combat this big is so unbloody? Most of my air units aren't actually shooting at the enemy although they do show up in combat. It seems like there might be a choke point or limit to how many fighter (or fighter units) can actually participate in combat? Is this WAD? This is a very typical result lately.

Morning Air attack on Maebashi , at 113,59

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 118
A6M5c Zero x 45
A7M2 Sam x 38
J2M3 Jack x 60
N1K1-J George x 247
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 11
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 150
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 16
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 29
Ki-84a Frank x 167
Ki-100-I Tony x 29
Ki-102b Randy x 35



Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 176
B-29-1 Superfort x 130
P-38J Lightning x 17
P-51B Mustang x 43
F4U-1 Corsair x 32
F4U-1A Corsair x 45
F6F-3 Hellcat x 17


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 2 destroyed
A7M2 Sam: 1 destroyed
J2M3 Jack: 3 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 5 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
F4U-1A Corsair: 3 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 4 destroyed

I should ask the same question now.... [:'(]

You see? It's the way the game is designed...or it's just a dice&roll thing...however it effects both sides...so we're even...damn it we are even[:D]

Haven't i told you that sometimes i hate you? [8|][:D][:D]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Uruppu-jima at 130,52

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 114
A6M5 Zero x 103
G4M1 Betty x 120
G4M2 Betty x 28
N1K1-J George x 541
P1Y1 Frances x 113



Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 33
Hellcat I x 22
Seafire IIC x 8
Beaufighter VIc x 7
Spitfire VIII x 18
P-39N2 Airacobra x 6
P-39N1 Airacobra x 17
P-40N5 Warhawk x 26
FM-1 Wildcat x 17
FM-2 Wildcat x 178
F4U-1A Corsair x 148
F6F-3 Hellcat x 365


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 4 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 3 destroyed, 23 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak
G4M2 Betty: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged
G4M2 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak
N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 2 destroyed, 22 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufighter VIc: 1 destroyed
FM-2 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 2 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVE Casablanca, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVE Nassau, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CVE Breton, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CVE White Plains, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CVE Kitkun Bay, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CVE Liscome Bay, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CVE Manila Bay, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CVE Hoggatt Bay, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CVE Natoma Bay, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CVE Rudyerd Bay
CVE Shah, Torpedo hits 1
CVE Steamer Bay, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Sargent Bay, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
CVE Saginaw Bay, Torpedo hits 1
CVE Begum, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Altamaha, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA Prince Robert
CVE Suwannee, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CVE Shipley Bay, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CVE Sitkoh Bay
CVE Barnes, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CVE Kalinin Bay, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
DE Manning
CVE Shamrock Bay, Torpedo hits 1
DE Donaldson



Aircraft Attacking:
15 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
22 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
33 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
15 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
18 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
18 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
16 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
27 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
25 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
30 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
29 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
VF-38 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(13 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
No.880 Sqn FAA with Seafire IIC (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
No.1836 Sqn FAA with Corsair II (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
No.1844 Sqn FAA with Hellcat I (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 8 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 8 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-21 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 8 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 8000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-26 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 16 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
VC(F)-27 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 12 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
VC(F)-33 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 7 on standby, 10 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
VF-35 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 14 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-60 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 13 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 23000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
VC(F)-63 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 12 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
VC(F)-65 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 12 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
VC(F)-68 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 11 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 21000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 46 minutes
7 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-75 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 7 on standby, 10 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VC(F)-76 with FM-2 Wildcat (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 10 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 27000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 27000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-77 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 12 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-78 with FM-2 Wildcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 12 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 51 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-83 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 12 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-90 with FM-2 Wildcat (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 12 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes

Fuel storage explosion on CVE Steamer Bay
Ammo storage explosion on CVE Altamaha
Ammo storage explosion on CVE Hoggatt Bay
Ammo storage explosion on CVE Liscome Bay
Ammo storage explosion on CVE Kitkun Bay
Fuel storage explosion on CVE Suwannee
Fuel storage explosion on CVE Casablanca
Ammo storage explosion on CVE Nassau
Banzai! - Muto G. in a G4M2 Betty is willing to die for the Emperor
Ammo storage explosion on CVE Barnes
Ammo storage explosion on CVE Barnes
Ammo storage explosion on CVE Manila Bay