Hetzer

[vaned74]

Running through the late war campaigns as Germany I notice that the Hetzer is classed as a Tank Destroyer, production is good, but, there are almost no TOEs for Germany that use "Tank Destroyers". So the Hetzers accumulate in the pool.

Fortunately for Hungary, the Hetzer is classed as a Hetzer(H) when imported and is an "assault gun" so Hungary can drop these in their rifle divisions that have a need for 30 assault guns each.

On the subject of TOEs, etc, I also note that in my 43 game the German JPz battalions all upgrade to Heavy Jagdpanzer units requiring Heavy Tank Destroyers - only choices are Jagdpanther and Nashorn. This then puts the Marders and PzJgr 1s as almost useless and close to impossible to fill out the Jpz battalions with a production rate of about 4 heavy TDs/week in '44 available for the East Front.

I also note a mass of Stug IVs and Jagdpanzer IV's starting to build in my pool in my 43 game (not in early 44) and I suspect my troops are just not interested in these new better designs either - UPDATE - I am seeing these start to go into Panzer 44 division TOEs so perhaps they will get used after all (at least the JPZ IVs).

[jzardos]

I have been complaining about these type of issues as soon as I started playing and saw these crazy and unrealistic accumulations of vehicles in pools. I'm extremely disappointed in the developers and designers of WitE for not finding a solution so that the axis player can utilize the pools of vehicles that accumulate.

Here's a few solutions:
- allow for players to tweak unit ToE, pick type for AFV within AFV class (just like you can swap plane types in air group)
- allow for Axis players to make some support units for an AP expenditure ( i.e. assault gun, TD, Tank, etc.)

I've NEVER heard any argument that this would be something historical or even plausible. The answer is it would not, so there's nothing to argue. In reality the German were scrapping together whatever vehicles they could and send them to the front. Any excess vehicles would have been quickly put to use in independent units and sent to the front. The manpower needed would have been a priority to flush out crews for the vehicles.

It will be a wonderful day when I see a patch that allows the Germans to use the pools of vehicles properly.

Sorry again, but I'm very excitable when it comes to this topic because it has always been a source of frustration in the game for me.

[randallw]

Part of this may be a simplification of production the designers chose; in real life production of equipment could bounce from one month to another.  The designers made the factories produce by the average, which sometimes created equipment pools larger than normal, at certain dates on the calendar.

[Denniss]

StuG IV and Hetzer (wrong name BTW) are in use by some TOE but in case of the StuG IV they may be late ones. If you run out of StuG III then the StuG IV should be used to substitute them.
1944 Volksgrenadier divs use Hetzer in their TOE

[vaned74]

Regardless, it appears that the Hungarians consider the Hetzer to be an assault gun, the Germans type it as a Tank Destroyer. I understand it was commonly used with Infantry Divisions like the Stug. I would think the simply fix would be Hetzer would be typed as an assault gun in future patches and thus be available for use. Over time, there will simply be hundreds, if not a thousand or more, rusting away in the pool because no TOE calls for them.

I think this is probably a design error in the late scenarios that were not tested thoroughly.

[ComradeP]

The Hungarian Hetzer was recently changed to an assault gun because it wasn't being used by the infantry divisions when it was a tank destroyer, because the infantry divisions use the Zrinyi initially I believe.

As to equipment in the pools: the Soviets can also see their pools (Lend-Lease and normal) grow substantially, especially later on with hundreds of AFV's being produced per week. Unless you're attacking units in forts with your Tank corps each turn, it's difficult to completely destroy a weekly output of AFV's.

For the Germans, the issue applies to only a fairly small number of units, because production rarely keeps up with losses for the common AFV's.

[PKH]

Intentionally misclassifying units to get it to be used seems like a lame hack. I think it would be better to add support for optional units, where these units would be chosen based on a priority system if they are available, or some variation of this.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP


As to equipment in the pools: the Soviets can also see their pools (Lend-Lease and normal) grow substantially, especially later on with hundreds of AFV's being produced per week. Unless you're attacking units in forts with your Tank corps each turn, it's difficult to completely destroy a weekly output of AFV's.

For the Germans, the issue applies to only a fairly small number of units, because production rarely keeps up with losses for the common AFV's.

Did you really just equate the issue of German idle elements to Soviet surpluses?

The Soviets have elements in the pool because they make more than they need, and until they take sufficient LOSSES, the surplus accumulates. The Germans have elements in the pool because the replacement system is a sub-standard aspect of War in the East. German need goes unmet because of these arbitrary distinctions on what is what. I can show you pictures of unpainted Tiger 1s in Grossdeutschland at Kharkov and again in Tunisia... Germany got equipment into the field quickly, even to the point of logistically complicating their defense.

There's probably no down-side to Soviet surpluses, or very little considering you can make new units. For Germany, it is yet another 'little slight', that serves to drag German game-play down arbitrarily. The game consequence is, of course, that your bodies in the front aren't getting their gear so they're just dying in shallow foxholes rather than fighting in the tank that was meant for them.

[Q-Ball]

Couple questions on this, one game related, one history.

RE: Game, the '44 TOE for the Panzer and PzG divisions include Jadgpanzer IVs, which is classified as a Tank Destroyer. Shouldn't these units, if there are not enough Jgpz IVs, pull Hetzers? If they don't, why not?

And, IRL, did Hetzers serve in Panzer and PzG divisions? I am certain they did, as I saw an SS Hetzer in the Imperial War Museum, but how widespread was this?

[vaned74]

You are correct Q-Ball - the Pz and Pzg divs will use Hetzers if necessary, however, there is seldom a need in 44 unless your panzer forces are trashed every turn. Production of JPZ-IV and especially IV/70s is sufficiently high enough to re-equip 1-2 divisions per week fully with JPZ-IVs.

My problem is I understood, and maybe I'm remembering wrong, was that the Hetzer was intended to be used to equip the 44TOE German infantry division with a TD capability. However, the TOE for German infantry does not call for it until the 1945 upgrades. In 44, the only infantry unit capable of using the Hetzer are the VG divisions (about 10-12 x ~10 Hetzers), eg net demand of about 100-120 TDs. I really think it should be classed as Aslt Gun like the Hungarians have it to at least have the interchangeability with the Stugs in the 44Inf TOE.

I am quite certain that if a division in 44 ran low on Stugs (as they will) and there were 500 Hetzers in the pool, someone at OKH would have authorized a substitution...the role expected by each vehicle was essentially the same.

[KenchiSulla]

I would say they would fit nicely in independent tank destroyer battalions?

[vaned74]

Yep, they would. However, the independent JPz battalions at this stage have upgraded to a TOE that only uses heavy TDs. Now I thought some Hetzers served in 741 and 743 Jpz battalions in reality, but, I'd need to go look again.

[KenchiSulla]

I think they did.. They produced more then 2000 of them so they must have gone somewhere...

[KenchiSulla]

They seem to have served on the eastern front starting early 1944... In my opinion this is a TOE mistake and should be corrected...

[Q-Ball]

Now you guys are on the right track: Find out what units used them, and the TOEs can be changed.

They were made, they were used, had to go somewhere

[ComradeP]

Did you really just equate the issue of German idle elements to Soviet surpluses?

The Soviets have elements in the pool because they make more than they need, and until they take sufficient LOSSES, the surplus accumulates. The Germans have elements in the pool because the replacement system is a sub-standard aspect of War in the East. German need goes unmet because of these arbitrary distinctions on what is what. I can show you pictures of unpainted Tiger 1s in Grossdeutschland at Kharkov and again in Tunisia... Germany got equipment into the field quickly, even to the point of logistically complicating their defense.

Helio, both sides have equipment magically appearing at the front as soon as production starts due to the current logistics system. The replacement system has little to nothing to do with the number of elements in the pool.

It's a TOE thing.

[Omat]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

I think they did.. They produced more then 2000 of them so they must have gone somewhere...

Hello

Maybe this is interesting (sadly in german):
It is a list which shows, when which unit got Hetzer (May44 - April45:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/pz38-R.htm

Hope it helps

Omat

[Denniss]

It's the list at the bottom of the page. The Jagdpanzer 38(t) was used as substitition for StuG for a short time in 1944 but most of them were used by the antitank-units of infantry or motorized divs or in independant anti-tank units.

[jzardos]

What is really starting to upset me is the developers have shy'd away from being accountable for this possibility of large pools of very important equipment sitting in these abstract pools. This is a game breaker in some cases for the German player more so for the Soviet.  It's ridiculous that this type of situation could have ever resulted after play testing?  Did not one tester stand up and say 'This is nuts, why do I have 200 panthers and 100 tigers sitting in pools not getting used??'  (replace panthers and tigers with assault guns types if you so choose).

Please just give me one good reason why this was not uncovered and dealt with?  It's been 1 yr since the release and there have been many many posts about this issue and yet have seen nothing to deal or back up the developers decisions on this matter.

[:(][&:][:(][&:]


Just give the Axis player the ability to utilize their production pools? It's a game and this aspect should not be deprived from the Axis player. Insanity to argue against this point from a purely historical reference point.

[paullus99]

I believe this has been dealt with, to some extent - by explaining that overall production totals were averaged out per month (whereas historically, production figures sometimes varied widely from month to month), so there would be instances where you might have overages sitting in the pools because of this.