We had a long discussion with my friend
and he claims that Hitler planned
attacking United States (after invading
Britain) from cooperative Mexico.
Is this true? Anyone know a good
website about Hitler's plans?
Hitler's world domination plan
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
I dont really think he had any plans to
move war outside Europe. Atleast i've
never read about it.
He didnt want to invade England and hoped they could force it to peace. Operation Sealion couldnt have been executed anyway
as there wasnt landing equipment for it.
Personally i think it was kind of bluff
to get british more willing to peace...just
keeping them under pressure.
Well just my thoughts
btw. supersonic America Bomber was designed
to fly over athmosphere to drop nuke to NY.
(it would hve used rocket power to accelerate then bounced on top of athmosphere around world until landing back to germany) Idea wasnt so far off...even flight paths were calculated, wind tunnel model was built...and drawings were quite accurate. RLM decided to cancel project as not high priority one, when all funding and concentration was needed to more earthly concepts and no nukes seemed to be avail for reich ...well good so
heh strange story, isnt it?
move war outside Europe. Atleast i've
never read about it.
He didnt want to invade England and hoped they could force it to peace. Operation Sealion couldnt have been executed anyway
as there wasnt landing equipment for it.
Personally i think it was kind of bluff
to get british more willing to peace...just
keeping them under pressure.
Well just my thoughts
btw. supersonic America Bomber was designed
to fly over athmosphere to drop nuke to NY.
(it would hve used rocket power to accelerate then bounced on top of athmosphere around world until landing back to germany) Idea wasnt so far off...even flight paths were calculated, wind tunnel model was built...and drawings were quite accurate. RLM decided to cancel project as not high priority one, when all funding and concentration was needed to more earthly concepts and no nukes seemed to be avail for reich
...well good so heh strange story, isnt it?
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Tom Proudfoot
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Mein Kampf may have much of Hitler's thinking, but re:United States, the best books that I know of are 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich' by William L. Schirer and 'Adolf Hitler' by John Toland. These two works provide not only a close up look at the dictator from many angles, they also go in depth on war strategy. The Germans in WWII had no strategy reagrding invading the United States-in fact, they fooled themselves with the opinion that the US was a 'decadent' nation run by Jews that wouldn't have the stomach or will to get involved in a European conflict. Of course, this traditional view of the US as isolationist, while not completly out of the realm of reason, was misguided.
[This message has been edited by Beantown (edited August 16, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Beantown (edited August 16, 2000).]
The only reason I can come up with for Hitler's interest in the USA derives from the discussions with Japan that lead to the pact they signed in Sept 1940. That was the beginning of the Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis. There were some discussions between the OKW and the Imperial Japanese Army staff regarding something called "Operation Orient", which was a proposed joint operation ultimately resulting in a linking up of the Wehrmacht and the IJA in India. However, the diametrically opposing views of the Imperial Japanese Navy staff and the reluctance of the IJA to engage Russia again brought these plans to nought. This, however, may still have been in the back of Hitler's mind when he declared war on the US after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor. This , to my mind, was still the most incomprehensible action he took during the course of WWII, since Japan had signed a non-aggression pact with Russia some months earlier.
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"Klotzen, nicht Kleckern (roughly translated, 'Boot em, don't spatter em')"--Heinz Guderian
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"Klotzen, nicht Kleckern (roughly translated, 'Boot em, don't spatter em')"--Heinz Guderian
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Desert Fox
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I have to agree that I think your friend is confusing WW1 with WW2. Hitler may have mused at a full scale invasion of the USA, but he never could have made realistic plans to do so within his lifetime. He did want to attack it, however, and a few different ideas were looked into, the long range atomic bomber being one of them.
Ultimately, however, when Hitler did invade the US, it was limited to a submarine launched spy party, all of which were quickly captured.
Ultimately, however, when Hitler did invade the US, it was limited to a submarine launched spy party, all of which were quickly captured.
You are right Desert Fox, though many contingency war plans were drawn up by Germany, some much more far fetched than conquering Russia (which almost happened).
I've seen a map done up by German planners for a rocket attack on New York city.
They planned to improve the V-2 to do that job...Interesting no?...WB
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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games
I've seen a map done up by German planners for a rocket attack on New York city.
They planned to improve the V-2 to do that job...Interesting no?...WB
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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant
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Michael Peck
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You should look at a book called "Tomorrow the World" by Norman Goda. I've posted a review on The Military Book Review at http://www.themilitarybookreview.com/html/tomorrow.html
The author argues that Hitler's strategy, especially in the Mediterranean, was governed by his expectation that he would have to fight the United States someday. For example, Germany tried hard to get bases from Spain that would have been more useful against the United States than Britain. I don't totally buy the argument, but it is thought-provoking.
Mike
Michael Peck
Editor
The Military Book Review http://www.themilitarybookreview.com/
The author argues that Hitler's strategy, especially in the Mediterranean, was governed by his expectation that he would have to fight the United States someday. For example, Germany tried hard to get bases from Spain that would have been more useful against the United States than Britain. I don't totally buy the argument, but it is thought-provoking.
Mike
Michael Peck
Editor
The Military Book Review http://www.themilitarybookreview.com/
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Kenny Goodman
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Hitler was very frustrated by his inability to attack the USA. He was on the receiving end and this caused him a lot of anger. The V-1 and V-2 where terror weapons that appealed to him because it would allow Germany to finally hit back at England after months and months of bombing. Even though each V-2 in man and materials (cost) could have produced 26 Tiger I's. A long range reconaisance did take pictures of New York and there where plans for some long range bombers but these never got much farther then the drawing board. I think if Hitler had fully conquered Europe some kind if peace plan would have been implemented between the US and Germany.
If... if... if...
I do not believe that Hitler's strategy extended as far as worrying asbout what to do with regards to the US in terms of invasion.
He did not have the wherewithal to invade nearby Britain, let alone a vast territory a whole ocean away!
His most important strategic axis was expansion Eastwards, for "Lebensraum". Interference by Britain chiefly, and France less effectively delayed him. Mussolini's disasters distracted him.
His under-estimate of Soviet fighting power, Japan's decision not to attack the Soviet Union and the magnitude of the task in relation to what he had available to accomplish it, taking his other commitments into account, eventually buried him and the Third Reich.
May we thank God every day for this.
Had he accomplished his task, Germany would have become a formidable Continental power, and the matter of how to deal with the U.S. (and for the U.S. how to deal with the Third Reich) would then have come much more into focus.
Even then, an invasion does not seem the most obvious of paths to follow.
[This message has been edited by Fabs (edited August 17, 2000).]
I do not believe that Hitler's strategy extended as far as worrying asbout what to do with regards to the US in terms of invasion.
He did not have the wherewithal to invade nearby Britain, let alone a vast territory a whole ocean away!
His most important strategic axis was expansion Eastwards, for "Lebensraum". Interference by Britain chiefly, and France less effectively delayed him. Mussolini's disasters distracted him.
His under-estimate of Soviet fighting power, Japan's decision not to attack the Soviet Union and the magnitude of the task in relation to what he had available to accomplish it, taking his other commitments into account, eventually buried him and the Third Reich.
May we thank God every day for this.
Had he accomplished his task, Germany would have become a formidable Continental power, and the matter of how to deal with the U.S. (and for the U.S. how to deal with the Third Reich) would then have come much more into focus.
Even then, an invasion does not seem the most obvious of paths to follow.
[This message has been edited by Fabs (edited August 17, 2000).]
Fabs
Mike, I agree it is thought-provoking, and I will check out the book, but I find it hard to believe that an Axis strategy for the Med was based on a USA strategy. First, there is evidence that Hitler let the UK army escape at Dunkirk, as he felt the destrcution of the Empire would not be benficial to anyone besides Japan and the USA. Second, wouldn't he have siezed the opportunity to severly hurt the UK in the Med when the chance was offered in 1942? All indications show that Hitler truned to Russia for two reasons: first, he had always planned to gain Lebenstraum, as you noted Fabs, and this was also buttressed by ideological issues. Second, he believed (apparently) that if Russia was gone, Britain would give in, as she had refused to see her beaten state after France fell. Remeber that the German peace proposals at that time (June 1940) were genuine (for the moment, anyway) and that Hitler and his cohorts were surprised and angered by the British refusal to throw in the towel and give Germany a free hand on the continent. This pointedly excludes the USA, and shows how Hitler viewed the nation as an afterthought. The actions in 1944-45 need to be taken in context; Germany was getting increasingly desperate, and Hitler's meglomania was also accelerating. In this context, hitting back at the USA is understandable, if fanciful.
[This message has been edited by Beantown (edited August 17, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Beantown (edited August 17, 2000).]
Do you guys really think Sealion was impossible to even try? I've always thought that if the Germans had massed the KM and LW (or at least nearly all of both), they could have forced the crossing. Doubtless a very bloody mess, but I think they could have won. Especially considering the troop/equipment situation in Britain proper. I always wondered why they didn't do the same to Malta. I would've gotten heartily sick of that little place, and the RN sinking my convoys and raising hell, and would've dumped the entire Italian army on the place. Once again, a bloody mess, but sure victory, due to numbers.
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Schrubbery
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Billy Yank
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I just saw a piece on the History Channel that showed film of the German's submarine-launched V-2 test. They put V-2's in watertight containers designed to be towed behind a submarine. When they got close to New York, they were supposed to flood ballast tanks to make the containers stand upright, then launch the missiles. They actually completed some live tests of the capsule system, but it never went any further than that.Originally posted by Wild Bill:
You are right Desert Fox, though many contingency war plans were drawn up by Germany, some much more far fetched than conquering Russia (which almost happened).
I've seen a map done up by German planners for a rocket attack on New York city.
They planned to improve the V-2 to do that job...Interesting no?...WB
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Billy Yank
I don't define "my own" the way you want me to.
Billy Yank
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
-- Thorin Oakenshield
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
-- Thorin Oakenshield
I consider any "plans" by Hitler to invade/conquer the USA to be the warhistory equivelent to an "urban legend"
Hitler's imagination was kept busy enough dreaming of a pan-Euro-Asian Germanic empire (read: Lebensraum) without having to worry about North America.
I remember hearing about such stuff way back in the 80's. Even better i heard from one source that Hitler had even gone so far as to assign Reichsgoveners for each of the states in the US
Hitler's imagination was kept busy enough dreaming of a pan-Euro-Asian Germanic empire (read: Lebensraum) without having to worry about North America.
I remember hearing about such stuff way back in the 80's. Even better i heard from one source that Hitler had even gone so far as to assign Reichsgoveners for each of the states in the US
If the Germans had attained complete air superiority over the channel area, and had some luck I think Sealion could have worked. Their lack of landing craft however would have meant transporting troops and tanks through other means which may have been very vulnerable to bad weather and subs. Brittain had (and has) a pretty good submarine force and German ASW wasn't much good.
As for Hitlers plans (or lack thereof) for invading the U.S. - I've ready Mein Kamph (sp?), rise/fall of the 3rd Reich, many other books on the Hitler subject, no indications found of any invasion plan. Attacking yes, bombing yes, missiles again yes, even poison gas was at least considered.
If you want to stretch to alternate history, what if Germany hadn't declared war on the US on Dec 10 1941? Would we have concentrated on Japan and found a German Europe when we got finished? Maybe then after many years of build-up the Germans could have tried some kind of invasion from a Cuban or other island base but that's a REAL s-t-r-e-a-t-c-h.
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(.) (.)
...V...
As for Hitlers plans (or lack thereof) for invading the U.S. - I've ready Mein Kamph (sp?), rise/fall of the 3rd Reich, many other books on the Hitler subject, no indications found of any invasion plan. Attacking yes, bombing yes, missiles again yes, even poison gas was at least considered.
If you want to stretch to alternate history, what if Germany hadn't declared war on the US on Dec 10 1941? Would we have concentrated on Japan and found a German Europe when we got finished? Maybe then after many years of build-up the Germans could have tried some kind of invasion from a Cuban or other island base but that's a REAL s-t-r-e-a-t-c-h.
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(.) (.)
...V...
(.) (.)
...V...
...V...
From my research, I think his "plans" were:
to humiliate France and get revenge for the "humiliaion of Versailles".
Neutralize Poland, either politically or militarily, to gain a springboard for the final mission: Gaining "lebensraum" from the Untermensch in the USSR. Hitler saw the UK and its Empire as a guarantor of stability and bringer of European civilization to the world. He envisioned himself and Greater Germany as the Continental equivalent: protecting European civilization from the "Jewish-Bolshevik Menace".
So much for the history lesson
to humiliate France and get revenge for the "humiliaion of Versailles".
Neutralize Poland, either politically or militarily, to gain a springboard for the final mission: Gaining "lebensraum" from the Untermensch in the USSR. Hitler saw the UK and its Empire as a guarantor of stability and bringer of European civilization to the world. He envisioned himself and Greater Germany as the Continental equivalent: protecting European civilization from the "Jewish-Bolshevik Menace".
So much for the history lesson
"...these go up to eleven."
Nigel Tufnel
Nigel Tufnel
I'm with Mr. Proudfoot. It sounds as if someone confuted the Zimmerman telegram wih WWII. And really the Zimmerman deal is suspect in several areas. A couple of years before a fairly weak American expeditionary force roamed pretty much at will through N. Mexico. What force could the Mexican armed forces have applied. If you ask yourself who really benefitted the only answer is Perfide Albion! All humor aside the German foreign office must have been suffering from the potato shortage to even be involved in anything so harebrained!