Sweden in Axis

[doomtrader]

As we already have a thread about Allied attack on Low Countries, so maybe you would care to share your opinions about chances that Sweden will join Axis.
Under what circumstances Sweden would decide to join Germany?
In RL, they have been already surrounded by the Axis, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Poland, Germany, and since 1941, Baltic States, were all under Axis rule.
They have cooperated pretty closely with Germans, so what should happen to make this happen?

[freeboy]

 Sweeds not entering into war unless threatened by sovs

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

As we already have a thread about Allied attack on Low Countries, so maybe you would care to share your opinions about chances that Sweden will join Axis.
Under what circumstances Sweden would decide to join Germany?
In RL, they have been already surrounded by the Axis, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Poland, Germany, and since 1941, Baltic States, were all under Axis rule.
They have cooperated pretty closely with Germans, so what should happen to make this happen?

I don't know a lot about Swedish internal politics in the period, but, afaiui, there is a snowball's chance in hell of them actively siding with the Axis ... zero. zilch. zip ... they co-operated as much as they did to avoid an actual German invasion while building up their armed forces as much as possible to give them a realistic chance of doing just that and, of course, to make the Germans think twice about it as, otherwise, economically speaking, they pretty much rolled over and played dead to the Germans.

In the end, there was really no benefit in the Germans invading Sweden ... they got pretty much everything they wanted from them, economically, at minimal cost.

Having Sweden ally actively with the Germans is about as likely as Holland or Belgium doing so on 3 SEP 39

You might get the Swedes actively supporting the Finns ... there were a fair few Swedish volunteers for the Winter War, though I am not sure whether they ever actually saw combat. So, I suppose, you could have the Finns and Swedes as active allies ... but, of course, the Finns were not wholehearted supporters of the Nazis ... in fact, aiui, they were co-belligerents (at war with the USSR at the same time) rather than allies.

Phil

[doomtrader]

I know a little bit about Swedish politics, and I'm pretty sure they were afraid Soviets a lot. So if the Winter War lasts longer and the Reds will advance further North, then do you still think the Swedish wouldn't choose 'closer' option?

[battlevonwar]

I am not sure how the Swedes felt about the USSR. I know that volunteers from Norway served actively on the front lines in the Winter War. The Swedes I have talked to over my life seemed to be a mixed bag. Some Pro-Axis, some Pro-Allied.

Norwegian Resistance agents actually used Sweden to retreat to at times. The Balkans were a unique situation, as they'd already fought several wars themselves and were constantly land-grabbing from one another with several Nationalistic States among them. It's definite the Swedes would have turned to the strong friend in the event of the USSR invading in my "opinion!" The Allies considering a DOW on the USSR for the invasion of Finland. This is very frightening allover

P.S. Politics are strange

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz
In the end, there was really no benefit in the Germans invading Sweden ... they got pretty much everything they wanted from them, economically, at minimal cost.

AFAIK Sweden gave transit rights to German troops to cross their territory and ensured that iron ore exports to Germany continued undisturbed, what more could Germany want.

In 1939/40 the Western Allies were asking for the transit of British and French troops through Norway and Sweden, to help the Finns against the Soviet attack in the Winter War. Both countries refused, which probably save the allies from an embarrassing failure and the plan was overtaken by the German invasion of Norway.

The Swedes were possibly worried at the prospects of many of these troops not going to Finland, but in taking possession of the iron ore areas.

Makes for an interesting scenario.[:)]

[aspqrz02]

Well, as I noted, there were a large number of Swedish volunteers who were, at the very least, training and organising to fight in the Winter War but, afaik, didn't get actively involved because the war ended too quickly.

If the war had continued, there wouldn't have been a Finland to worry about ... Finland survived more because Uncle Joe really didn't want it just then as anything else.

If you're talking about the Continuation War then, yes, there might be a chance of the Swedes supporting the Finns more actively, as I noted ... but I don't see it as German allies, but as Finnish allies ... and the Finns were not German allies, as I noted, they were co-belligerents and, when they treatied up with the Sovs towards the end of the war, they were quite happy to fight the German forces all the way back to Norway (in the North).

So, Swedes = Finnish supporters, yes. Swedes = German allies = no.

YMMV

Phil

[StellarRat]

It's very unlikely the Swedes would join the Axis. They hated the Russians at least as much or more than the Germans. Remember they fought a long war with the Russians in the "before" times. But, since the Russians were dealing with the Germans over Poland, etc... the chance of them joining the Axis at the start of the war are zip. I agree with aspqrz that they are quite likely to support the Finns against Russia, but there is just about zero chance of them joining the Axis. Also, I doubt they were very fearful of the Germans later in the war as it was obvious that Germany was FULLY occupied dealing with Russia and the Allies. Like the Finns stubborn resistance to the Russia, Germany would not have had an easy time taking over Sweden which has/had a lot more people and industry then either Norway or Finland and difficult terrain for armored warfare.

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: StellarRat

It's very unlikely the Swedes would join the Axis. They hated the Russians at least as much or more than the Germans. Remember they fought a long war with the Russians in the "before" times. But, since the Russians were dealing with the Germans over Poland, etc... the chance of them joining the Axis at the start of the war are zip. I agree with aspqrz that they are quite likely to support the Finns against Russia, but there is just about zero chance of them joining the Axis. Also, I doubt they were very fearful of the Germans later in the war as it was obvious that Germany was FULLY occupied dealing with Russia and the Allies. Like the Finns stubborn resistance to the Russia, Germany would not have had an easy time taking over Sweden which has/had a lot more people and industry then either Norway or Finland and difficult terrain for armored warfare.

I know that in 1939 they had almost no anti-tank guns (not even many AT Rifles, which were pretty much useless even then), few AA guns, and about as many armoured vehicles (armoured cars only, IIRC) ... and I have read that they made every effort to build up the numbers of all of these as quickly as they could ... but I have never seen any information about their buildup in the period 1939-45 ... I presume they must have ...

As a result, my understanding is that they probably would have been almost as easy to take out as the Norwegians had been (and the Norwegians did, after all, give a relatively good account of themselves) proportional to the difference in population and economic strength ... in 1939-40. After that? I have no idea whatsoever.

They made good smallarms, I know. And Bofors AA guns were used by pretty much anyone and everyone ... but that's all!

Phil

[battlevonwar]

200,000 men

[StellarRat]

This page will give you some good information: http://www-solar.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~aaron/sweeds.html

"In April 1940 Swedens entire force of 400.000 men was put on full alert. A newly formed national goverment was formed, conscription was increased to 450 days and the armed forces streinght was incresed to 600.000 men, not including civilians who were formed into home guard, aircraft observer and various auxilary units."

By the end of the war, they were they were up to 10 infantry divisions from five at the start.

Comparatively from the Wikipedia:

"The Norwegian Armed Forces fielded around 55,000 combatants involved in the fighting, mainly in six infantry divisions. The Allied expeditionary force to Norway numbered around 38,000 men."

So, the Germans would have to have faced a force about 10 times bigger in Sweden.

[fvianello]

I'd say:
- Finland controlled or pro USSR
- Consistent soviet force on / near the border
- Germany not at war with USSR (Sweden doesn't want to JOIN the war, but to be left alone)

[StellarRat]

BTW, the Swedes did send send quite a bit of arms to the Finns. So, they did support them indirectly. From the Wikipedia:

"When the Soviet Union invaded Finland in November 1939, many Swedes favored some sort of involvement in the conflict, both on a humanitarian and on a military basis. Sweden's interest in Finland lay in the fact that Finland had been an integrated part of Sweden for more than six hundred years, with Sweden losing control of its eastern provinces in 1809. Despite several pleas from the Finnish government, the Swedish government declined to engage militarily with the Red Army as it advanced during the Winter War. However, Sweden declared itself "non-belligerent" rather than neutral during the conflict and as many as 8,000 Swedes voluntarily went to Finland to fight. The Swedish government and public also sent food, clothing, medicine, weapons and ammunition to aid the Finns during this conflict. This military aid included:[15]
135,402 rifles, 347 machine guns, 450 light machine guns with 50,013,300 rounds of small arms ammunition;
144 field guns, 100 anti-aircraft guns and 92 anti-armor guns with 301,846 shells;
300 sea mines and 500 depth charges;
17 fighter aircraft, 5 light bombers, 1 DC-2 transport aircraft turned into bomber, and 3 reconnaissance aircraft.

Twelve of Sweden's most modern fighter aircraft, British Gloster Gladiators, were flown by volunteer Swedish pilots under Finnish insignias.[16] These aircraft constituted one third of Sweden's fighter force at the time. In addition, Sweden received some 70,000 Finnish children who were sent to Sweden to find safety during the 1940s.[17]

It was during the Winter War the previously mentioned "accidental" bombings occurred."

[aspqrz02]

Yes, but the same page (thanks for the link) expands on the point I made about AT weapons - 2 x 37mm ATG per Regiment, and, IIRC what I am (quickly) skimming through, 3 Regiments per Division ... or 6 ATG per Division ... in 1939.

Oh, me. Oh my. [X(]

Rising to 4 x 37mm ATG per Regiment in 1940 TO&E [8|]

And to 6 x 47mm ATG per Regiment in the 1940 TO&E [8|]

Now, yes, as people have pointed out, Sweden has some tank unfriendly terrain ... but, as I understand it, most of the agricultural land, population centers and industry are in the S and SE of the country where the terrain is not so bad for Tanks ... so, an armoured thrust through Norway would be a real possibility ...

And that massive ATG complement in each of the Swedish Infantry Divisions would have done ... diddly squat.

Phil

[battlevonwar]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_Germa ... orld_War_2

I liked some of the answers here. Seems plenty of people seem to debate the same things.

Also found out about a little known defensive structure, for against the Soviets or the Germans, i.e. Skånelinjen a light fortified coastal section:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skåne_Line

I would love to see Sweden in this game though. To me another Neutral is a bad thing ETO games are about mowing the lawn in the end. And look at the PPs in Switzerland, unless you're going to seriously slap my hand before D-Day happens I'm eating that Cake. Any any wise player shall....Historical Accuracy doesn't matter when all the chips are down  : )

[StellarRat]

Well that's sort of true. My research on the Wiki says that Sweden is 78% heavy forest and woodland. Only 8% of the country is agricultural land. So, while the Germans might have been able to overrun some of the country with tanks I think they would have been in deep doo doo trying to take the rest. Facing 600,000 angry infantry running around in the forest is not most Panzer commanders dream campaign. You probably also saw that they were not short on artillery or machineguns.

[aspqrz02]

Yes, but if the 600,000 Infantry are running around in the forest primeval while you, as Panzer Commander, have taken and occupied all of the agricultural land, all of the major population centers (and the areas where the majority of the population live) and all of the industrial centers ...

I believe they call that "victory" [;)] [:D] [X(] [8D] [:)]

YMMV

Phil

[StellarRat]

I'm sure the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese would disagree with you....

[aspqrz02]

Not even remotely the same.

I could explain why, but it is self evident with even the slightest thought.

Phil

[vonRocko]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Not even remotely the same.

I could explain why, but it is self evident with even the slightest thought.

Phil

Please explain. You don't think those 600,000 in the forest would make the occupation a nightmare?