Step this way... BOOOOM

[rbrunsman]

So how is it that a "Panzermeinen" can be used in an attack? It seems strange to me that you can use a mine to engage the enemy. Yet this is exactly what my German infantry did to the Brits last night. Is this one of those Saving Private Ryan "sticky bomb" situations, where it is only used in close assaults, in which case I think you would still need to be in the same hex as your target. Which I was not.

[Charles2222]

Ah, but you forget about the 'edge' of the hex. What if unit A is on the 49th most eastern yard of it's hex, while unit B is of the 49th western yard of it's hex? You could also argue that within the same hex, you could have units actually further apart than units in different hexs, such as the above example compared to units 48yds. apart but in the same hex.

[rbrunsman]

Yes, but how do I convince my worthy opponent to kindly step on my recently placed mine? A mine is meant to be stepped on or, placed on something (e.g. limpet mine), right? The successful setup of this tactic usually requires that your intended victim not know that the mine is present. Do I throw it under his feet like a frizbee as he is charging towards me? What if he is pinned and won't move from the location he is currently huddled down in? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Katana]

If you're referring to the panzerwurfmine, yes, you're supposed to throw it like a frizbee in front of a vehicle. Seriously.

[rbrunsman]

That's the one I meant. Does anyone have any details on this weapon? I guess it acts like a satchel charge.

[G_X]

Panzerwurfmines? The "Frisbee Bombs"?!?

Those are awesome, to my knowledge you just Chuck'em and forget 'em

Some other AT mines work Grenade-style, but have Magnets and such, or something.

Can something with a 0 hex range even be fired? I thought Kukri were knives, but they have a range of 1...

[Curieus]

Boomerang shaped knifes.
If you miss, they return, if you hit, then the new "owner" will not really object to you getting it back :p

[Charles2222]

rbrunsman:

Do I throw it under his feet like a frizbee as he is charging towards me? What if he is pinned and won't move from the location he is currently huddled down in? Inquiring minds want to know.

Suffice it to say that the game doesn't get into that much detail and that there is something weird going on like a "suspension of belief". Maybe they strap them onto a stray dog that comes by (and throw a nice juicy stick in the direction of the enemy after strapping on the mine), and given that dogs aren't in the game, there must be some way to incorporate such random elements to the battlefield:rolleyes: .

Given such reasoning, perhaps that's why smoke grenades last so long, because the random elements of secondary effects such as a bird taking off might kick up extra dust.:p .

[Svennemir]

This is an excellent site about German WWII anti-tank weapons:

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust9.htm

Allow me to quote:

"Panzerwurfmine

Because of the problems to stabilize the dedicated anti-tank grenades for flight - the shaped charge needed to be pointed straight at the armor to work efficiently - the Panzerwurfmine ("tank throw mine") or PWM (L) (L for "lang" = "long") was developed by the Luftwaffe weapon's bureau (the Luftwaffe also contained ground forces in the form of it's field units and the paratroopers).

The weapon weighed 1.36kg, had a length of 53.3cm and used a stabilizing assembly of four fins made of canvas at it's rear. It was introduced into service in May of 1943 but proved rather impractical. Still, 203,800 were produced in 1943.


It's successor model was the Panzerwurfmine Kz (Kz = kurz ("short")) that weighed only 1 kg. Flight stabilization now was achieved by a long canvas strip that rolled out when the weapon was thrown and extended from it's rear. The warhead had a diameter of 11.4 cm and carried a shaped charge of 500g that had an armor penetration of 150mm."


There's a picture on the site. There are pages about PzSchreck, Faust and much more, plus the theory of the shaped charge.

[rbrunsman]

Thanks Svennemir! That is great news. A mine that you throw. Only German ingenuity could come up with something like this.

[G_X]

Originally posted by Charles_22

Suffice it to say that the game doesn't get into that much detail and that there is something weird going on like a "suspension of belief". Maybe they strap them onto a stray dog that comes by (and throw a nice juicy stick in the direction of the enemy after strapping on the mine), and given that dogs aren't in the game, there must be some way to incorporate such random elements to the battlefield:rolleyes: .

Given such reasoning, perhaps that's why smoke grenades last so long, because the random elements of secondary effects such as a bird taking off might kick up extra dust.:p .

Perhaps those of us who can't grasp that this is a game and not real life after all, and games do have limitations, could pull the sticks out of their rears, and let the rest of us enjoy the game without complaints about small things.


Curieus, are you serious? If you are, that's gotta be the coolest thing I've heard in a while, if not, it's still a good idea.

[Charles2222]

G_X: I was kidding wasn't I? A bit of hyperbole if you don't mind.

[rbrunsman]

Curieus & G_X: Don't you guys remember the movie Mad Max? There was that "feral kid" that had a bladed boomerang. --One of the idiot bad guys thought it would be a good idea to catch it. He lost 4 fingers that way. The kid had a chainmail glove to catch any misses that returned to him.

[G_X]

Originally posted by Charles_22
G_X: I was kidding wasn't I? A bit of hyperbole if you don't mind.

I appologize then, I mistook what you were saying to be another one of the seemingly many people who fail to realize SPWaW is not perfect, and who complain Ad Nauseum about small things.

No rb, the last time I saw Mad Max was....Egads, I don't even remember the first one. Though still, that is a great idea for knives, that way you only have to keep track of one.

And they ~dooo~ look like Boomerangs

[Curieus]

rbrunsman, you are right, i should have added a disclaimer.

I am familiar on how thin aluminium boomerangs are not a good idea (tm).

Perhaps those gurkas have 99 knives on them (after all they have 99 ammo):p

[Charles2222]

G_X: I'm afraid you may have to reunleash the insult. I think I 'would' qualify meet your description of a detail minutia freak, only I understand there are limits. I was attempting to make fun of my own minutia tendency and that of the attitude, which I don't hold, of TKSS, or the Tiger-Killing Sniper Syndrome.

Since you are on the other side of the fence so to speak, I would like to throw a few things your way. First of all, I don't consider SPWAW or SPWW2 as games, but as simulations, a considerable difference. Despite what I'd like to think of it as, even a simulation has it's limits, and you must understand that when I speak of the SP series as simulation, I'm also speaking of CL/CA. AOE is a game.

I'll give you an example of problems I have with SPWAW and areas where I do not, though improving the 'simulation' should always be paramount. If you were to say to me "there's no way men can run top speed across the battlefield every turn and not get fatigued so we should have fatigue settings," then I would agree that it would make for more realism but I might disagree that it should be implemented. To think of it, I suppose it would be nice, but it doesn't sound like something that would really improve anything very much. OTOH, this smoke grenade business bugs me, since they do loiter for a very extended amount of time, and retreating/routing troops do use them 80% of the time. It just seems grossly unrealistic to me and makes moping up a great hassle.

Now implementing a fatigue system might take a pretty good amount of programming to bring about, particularly if we're talking one of the SP's and not CL/CA, but given how I've seen SPWW2 do smoke grenades what I regard as "perfectly" I do hope that CL/CA will treat it in like manner. The difference between both of these possible improvements also has to do with how I've seen smoke done better elsewhere, whereas I'm not convinced adding fatigue will improve things enough to be worth the bother.

It also boils down to something in SPWAW's case where smoke grenades can be easily adjusted, I would think, whereas one of the charms of SPWW2, the multiple height levels is not so easily made. I'm not detail minutia for the sake of it. As for the multiple levels in SPWW2, it don't even notice it for the most part, and it's almost more annoying than anything (to me), since a minute level difference can throw you off easily on what you thought were hidden positions and which were not.

So you can see that I'm not the stereotypical minutia freak, just as I'm sure you're not a stereotypical "just throw attack points, defense points, and movement points on units and we should be happy" freak. My only problem with your dissenting post is not whether you regard me as a minutia freak or not, but that you couldn't see how that I was making fun of some of my disposition. You thought I was being super-serious it seems (and the first post was. In fact it was almost a Paul Vebberian response if I may say so) but the opposite was the case with the latter post. If you're going to insult me for minutia, at least make sure that I'm being serious when I'm engaging in it (and you did quote my non-serious post).

As I said, the first post I made to this thread was definitely serious minutia, but it's entirely applicable to the game, as there are 50 yds. to every hex. There was no imagination used on my part, I've heard that sort of thing before, and it is a helpful explanation because units don't necessarily center themselves on the center of hexs as we might like to believe.

[FreeBird]

Originally posted by rbrunsman
So how is it that a "Panzermeinen" can be used in an attack? It seems strange to me that you can use a mine to engage the enemy. Yet this is exactly what my German infantry did to the Brits last night. Is this one of those Saving Private Ryan "sticky bomb" situations, where it is only used in close assaults, in which case I think you would still need to be in the same hex as your target. Which I was not.

Have you ever seen the movie 'Cross of Iron'? They have a scene in it were Sgt Steiner (James Coburn) tosses a Panzermeinen under the tracks of a T-34. Great movie if you can find it.

Regards..

[tracer]

Originally posted by FreeBird


Have you ever seen the movie 'Cross of Iron'? They have a scene in it were Sgt Steiner (James Coburn) tosses a Panzermeinen under the tracks of a T-34. Great movie if you can find it.

Regards..

They have the DVD on Amazon.com...I got it there last year for less than $20. It is a great flick.

[G_X]

Charles...I wasn't insulting you....

I'm, in fact, a detail minutia freak myself. The smoke Grenade thing pisses me off to no end, if a turn lasts a maximum of five minutes, a smoke grenade should last at most two turns.

This, to me, fits well with their job, to provide cover for advancing/retreating troops or tanks. Infantry don't need 20 minutes of smoke. If they need 10 they're not moving fast enough.

And actually, I can see a Sniper killing a tank, if he assaults it, open the hatch, drop a grenade it, everyone dies.

*shrug* Please...calm down, I wasn't meaning to be insulting, if I came off sounding that way, I appologize deeply. I was just poking fun...


As to the knife thing, they probably return somehow (Can't find info on it, not looking hard enough) Otherwise there wouldn't be 99 of them (I can't see indians toting around 99 Kurkis...)

[Hades]

Since the game can't simulate reuseable ammo, I guess 99 knives just means stabbing someone and using it again. I really doubt any 12 man squad could carry 99 knives, thats like 8 and 1/2 knives a man.