Turkey case

[doomtrader]

OK, probably a thread similar to the Swedish one.
A 'what if' discussion about the possibility that the Turkey will join one of the Alliances.
Most probably it was one of the most important countries which non-neutrality might change the course of war.

What do you think about that?
Allied Turkey, Communists Turkey, Axis Turkey?

[freeboy]

Well, the Turks where not pro Allied, and the Turks where seriously not pro communist.. But they where pro Turkey!
I cannot see a good outcome for the 2 player game with Turkey entering on on side... unless attacked.. too odd.. unless you reduce the quality of the Turks from what I experienced when I tested invasion from Germans

[Razz1]

What! Muslim's want War? No way!

Especially after WWI.

Turkey is great food, but makes you fall asleep.

However, if they were attacked, they would join the opposite alliance.

[freeboy]

yes.. agreed.. I think that Spain and Turkey are tough to say what if...
BUT they certainly would not want to be on the lossing side again!

[FieldOfGlory]

IMHO if either the Turks or the Spanish were to be coaxed into joining the war, Spain will most certainly go axis and the Turks I think would probably go Allies as a first choice and the Axis and comunist would be very close to a tie for second choice. Not sure which way the would likely go there but I suppose they would be more likely to join which ever one they thought was winning the war.

[aspqrz02]

When Kemal Ataturk died, in 1934 IIRC, he warned his successors, and the army (much the same in those days) to not ally with Germany in the even of another war ... and that's way before Hitler was really seen as a serious threat ...

Now, the Turks thought rather well of Mustafa Kemal (hence the "Ataturk" = Father of the Turks) then ... and, indeed, still do ... so they wisely followed his advice.

I can't see them going against it unless the Germans have already more or less won.

On top of that, HMG negotiated forward contracts with Turkey for all the raw materials she could produce that Germany needed so bad ... Tungsten, for example ... buying it up at attractive prices, too. Which was a really smart move ... the Turks got, evidently, a damn good deal, the Brits stopped the Germans from getting things they needed, and the Turks were exceedingly happy.

So, unless you can knock Britain and the Commonwealth from the game ... before the US can step in and take over Britain's obligations ... and, as we have discussed before, this is not really possible ... that means that Turkey will remain neutral in favour of the Allies.

There is, I suspect, a slightly higher chance of the Turks joining the Allies, especially after D-Day, but even then the Germans could have done some nasty damage to European Turkey if they were bloody minded enough ... and, of course, the chances are they would be!

I can't, offhand, think of anything Turkey really wanted badly enough that either Hitler or the Allies could give them as a bribe to make the difference, either.

And, apart from the Tungsten, which, at the level of ToF probably makes no game significant difference, there's really nothing that either alliance could realistically get from Turkey that would make it economically or militarily worthwhile to try and get them onside actively.

Phil

[battlevonwar]

I once read a book(amateur history book about the time following WW1 and the Ataturk was exalted beyond belief as I recall on every page)

I do not think that the Turks had any more Ottoman ambitions. I do know that they had a bad war with Greece( did not Greece nearly eat a chunk of Turkey?) This was in another book about a Balkan War. Something I believe France or England supported vs Turkey. Did this cause any bitterness really?

Doubtful for a Nation that once was one of the Greatest Empires in the World... Sick Man of Europe by the time WW1 started, a non-issue militarily in WW2

I assume at the end they go on the winning side like many here. (them joining the Axis with the power of Port Transportation with Italian naval Dominance and Tac Air)
""""""allows for a quick invasion of Caucasus. A bit Gamey....Sweet for the Axis....""""""

[aspqrz02]

Actually, no. Turkey joining the Axis doesn't really do much *for* the Axis.

Lots of reasons but, as usual, boils down to *stuffed logistics* ...

* Turkish rail lines had limited capacity, Turkish railways had limited rolling stock, Turkish rail lines didn't really go where they would have been much use for the Axis.

* The Axis had limited rolling stock capacity as well, they barely had enough locomotives and assorted goods cars to run the rail net they had plus invade the USSR, and they were never able to do more than barely keep up with those requirements even producing locos and rolling stock to the max.

* Now, sure, in an Unrealistic Scenario Based On Wishful Thinking Rather Than Reality, they can magically produce unlimited tanks, planes, submarines, aircraft carriers, strategic bombers and the like, but in the real world, the amount of resources they actually had access to didn't stretch to all of those. They can't have more locos and rolling stock unless they produce less tanks and planes etc.

* If you really like scenarios that bear no relationship at all to anything even vaguely resembling reality, then, yes, Turkey is a fine gain for the Axis. If, on the other hand, you prefer reality, it is a dead weight that can only really be useful once you've pretty much won the war without their assistance (won the war = conquered Russia, the Commonwealth and the USA).

Not even a bit gamey ... completely ridiculuos.

Depends on what you prefer, I suppose.

Phil