My Jap flak

[Miller]

My game is about to hit 9/43. Guess how Allied a/c have been lost to flak?

[Empire101]

Not many I expect[&:]

[Miller]

53 (fifty-three)

[Shark7]

Doesn't matter how many guns you have when the planes attacking you are flying higher than your guns can shoot. IIRC, all light AAA guns are limited to 8000 ceiling in the DB...25mm Type 96 is light AAA...you can figure it out from there. [:(]

[mdiehl]

Doesn't seem all that far off the mark to me.
Japanese flak was remarkably ineffective, IRL.
Some of the reasons for that are detailed in Shattered Sword.

[JeffroK]

You could compare as to what your Allied opponents AAA had achieved, in stock games AAA doesnt work except for low level attacks. (PS Many AAA losses show as OPs losses if too damaged to RTB)

Its supposed to be fixed in the BigBabes mods though I havent finished jan 42 in that game yet.

I hope their fixes are considered worthy enough to get into the next stock patch (because not everyone likes what they have done in BigBabes)

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Doesn't seem all that far off the mark to me.
Japanese flak was remarkably ineffective, IRL.
Some of the reasons for that are detailed in Shattered Sword.

yet the Allied lost far more aircraft to flak than to enemy fighters in the Pacific.

this and the posts below:

fb.asp?m=2801025

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: Miller

53 (fifty-three)

In this game japanese 75 mm AA gun is a joke. It doesn't matter how many you have, 75 mm guns won't shot down anything. Maybe one Blenheim or Marauder now and then, but nothing more. 88 mm AA gun is a bit better, but not much.

In my PBEM games only ships have guns big enough to shot down 4Es. Land base AA have zero 4E kills. I do hope late war 12 cm AA gun is better.


I think one of the problem with AA units is that they don't get any experience. No matter how many shells they shoot, they don't seem to learn anything.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: Miller

53 (fifty-three)

In this game japanese 75 mm AA gun is a joke. It doesn't matter how many you have, 75 mm guns won't shot down anything. Maybe one Blenheim or Marauder now and then, but nothing more. 88 mm AA gun is a bit better, but not much.

In my PBEM games only ships have guns big enough to shot down 4Es. Land base AA have zero 4E kills. I do hope late war 12 cm AA gun is better.


I think one of the problem with AA units is that they don't get any experience. No matter how many shells they shoot, they don't seem to learn anything.

However, I have to be very, very careful with my 4E altitude. While I rarely lose more than one 4E every three or four raids to direct flak, I have suffered as many as 13 (ouch, that's two weeks production) to Ops losses due to flak damage.

[Dili]

I have suffered as many as 13 (ouch, that's two weeks production) to Ops losses due to flak damage.

That is realistic.

[mdiehl]

yet the Allied lost far more aircraft to flak than to enemy fighters in the Pacific.

That is true. Yet you also have to bear in mind that is largely because the Japanese Army and Navy air arms were almost totally ineffective after the end of 1943. During the important carrier battles of 1942, Japanese flak was not very effective, where their interceptors were.

I suppose all of this needs to be couched in circumstance. OK, 53 a.c. lost to flak -- doing what? Where? Is it because the Allies aren't getting into many bombing engagements against major flak installations? Or is this specifically a complaint about IJN flak?

How many does he think he's supposed to have shot down? Relative to what? US flak was 10 times more effective, against anything, and US a.c. were much more durable for the most part (excepting a few durable planes like the Emily). So if the J player is keeping up a high operational intensity, have six or seven hundred Japanese a.c. been lost to flak?

[Canoerebel]

I'm going to take Miller at his word.  If there were unusual circumstances (very few carrier battles, all air operations conducted at night or in blizzard conditions, etc.) he wouldn't have posted this in the first place. 

[mdiehl]

I guess what I'm saying is that I believe his statement of the results and I believe it was generally normal ops. I'm just not at all convinced that knocking down "only 53" a.c. with flak by Sept 1943 is an inappropriate result. The Japanese were not proficient at it. They didn't have anything like the radar nets used to defend land installations that could have sections firing at targets of known elevation and speed with lots of advanced warning, as was the case in the UK. Their ships had the crudest possible AAA fire control, lacked redundancy in range finders and directors, had poorly placed AAA armament, used poorly designed guns with poor rof and poor turret traverse. They weren't known to be flak monsters in the slightest.

I wouldn't be surprised if USS South Dakota shot down more Japanese a.c. using flak just at the Battle of Santa Cruz than the entire IJN shot down up to that point in in the war.

[crsutton]

My Allied Flak losses in 6/44

[crsutton]

Japanese losses in the same game. Proportionally about right but not near enough for both. I like to operate my bombers in the 6-10k range. Figure about 50% of the OP losses are due to flak as well and it is adding up a bit.

[Yaab]

Interesting.

There is considerable drop in Effect and Accuracy values of big calibre flak guns for both sides compared to medium (25-40mm) caliber guns.
Flak is most accurate in 6,000-9,800 feet range. Above it, flak starts to be really ineffective in shooting down aircraft and only serves as a means to disrupt bombing accuracy.

Try bombing Hong Kong with Idas only at 10,000 feet on December, 7. At that altitude, the 27 Idas face only 16 x 3' 20 CWT, 4 x 3.7”inch guns. Medium guns - 2pdr, 40mm Bofors, AAMGs - do not have enough ceiling. You can bomb the city with almost total impunity. Once in a blue moon some stray shot will damage a single Ida, and that's it.

As Japs, stay above from 6,000 - 9,800 feet range when bombing bases/LCUs with flak and you are golden.

[Rising-Sun]

Well the closer you are, the more risk of getting shot down regardless what you are flying. Esp point of direction and higher altitude make a huge different. Allies had pretty good fire controls and Japan didn't have those til late end of the war.

Wondering if Germany had any effective fire controls shoot down aircrafts, if so why they didn't share that techs with Japan? Heard that German had some nice hardware to shoot down enemy planes.

[GreyJoy]

DBB solves all of these problems. Jap flak works. Allied flak works even better. Allied naval flak is simply awesome



And my opponent hasn't been very active with his bombings so far...

[LoBaron]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

[:D]