Convoys !!!

[Petiloup]

Luckily the Royal Navy officials were smarter in real life than the programmer of this game or we would all do the Nazi salute today and speak German.

I can't believe this wasn't even tested and sold like this to buyers. Unbelievable.

So one day Italy is at peace and convoys are reaching UK safely.

Then Italy declares war and all hell break loose. Well I would say fair enough on the account of surprise.

[Petiloup]

Then I wait the next turn and the convoys ALL chose to go via the Med once again and get sunk.[X(]

This if course go as well for my convoys from UK to Suez because seems they lost the maps to go around Africa.

I failed to see any way to map your own convoys routes so I guess it's like that.

[Petiloup]

So I have two conclusions:

1/ The game wasn't even remotely tested.

2/ It's a game design and someone never read the Battle of the Atlantic (by the way it explains why I didn't see even one German sub in the Atlantic as the Italian navy is the absolute secret weapon).

That a game have the supposedly goal to make me feel the depth and complexity of WW2 is capable of creating this way of simulating convoys to England is advertising sheer incompetence from the designers.

I'm sorry again to come so hard but this is now a fact.

I have never played in my life a so poorly designed game EVER. And I play on my PC for 30 years over now. I had better games on my Amiga.

[gwgardner]

Once again, unfounded statements.

It's been tested continuously. And many times players have asked for a way to better route their convoys.

Instead of throwing up your hands and declaring the game untested and a total loss because of convoy routing through the Med:

-how about devising a tactic to protect those convoys?
-how about developing your ASW to help in that
-how about basing an air unit in Malta and Egypt and start taking out Italian subs?
-how about using your carriers to take out Italian subs and surface ships?

I just read the issue of Purnell's history concerning the war in the Med at the time you are referring to, and guess what - there were indeed MANY British efforts to send transport ships through the Med. MANY. Not only to supply Malta continuously, but for emergency shipments into Egypt or to Greece.

The game does quite well in simulating the convoys around Africa, with the convoys from the British Colonies.

Get over your drop-jawed amazement over how thing were designed in the game, and come up with reasonable ways to deal with the circumstances.

[Petiloup]

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
Once again, unfounded statements.
It's been tested continuously. And many times players have asked for a way to better route their convoys.

If players are asking for better ways to route this means the game is for sale already. Testing should come before a product is for sale. That is the meaning of testing. What you are referring to is support on bugs and flaws.

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
Instead of throwing up your hands and declaring the game untested and a total loss because of convoy routing through the Med:

-how about devising a tactic to protect those convoys?
-how about developing your ASW to help in that
-how about basing an air unit in Malta and Egypt and start taking out Italian subs?
-how about using your carriers to take out Italian subs and surface ships?

I would do that gladly if for say India's convoys are partially routed through the Med for example but PLEASE read the Battle of the Atlantic and you'll see that already in 1940 a lot of the supplies to the UK where coming from the Americas not via the Med.

I will list the route done by ALL convoys from the British colonies and they are ALL routed through Suez and along North Africa coast. NOTHING through the Atlantic ocean.

So if that means is not a total loss on that part then what do you need?

Then you are asking me to find ways to play a game with such obvious flaw as if it was tested properly? if this was meant by design than it's not a flaw, it's incompetence from the game designers who have no rights to even start producing a WW2 game. They should stick to Fantasy Game so they could do whatever they want. That comment is fair I believe. Not nice to read I agree but fair enough.

I bought a game to play WW2 and this includes to get the feel of the Battle of the Atlantic chasing German U-Boats not fighting the Italian Navy instead.

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
I just read the issue of Purnell's history concerning the war in the Med at the time you are referring to, and guess what - there were indeed MANY British efforts to send transport ships through the Med. MANY. Not only to supply Malta continuously, but for emergency shipments into Egypt or to Greece.

I totally agree with that they did in case of emergencies due to victories from Rommel but seems you forgot to read the Battle of the Altantic was a much more bigger problem than the Med. If you would read that Winston Churchill commented the thing that frightened him most during the war was the threat posed by the German submarine fleet, the U-boats. In the early months of the war U-boats took a heavy toll of merchant shipping and this continued into 1940.

So how do you explain that in this game I have no losses due to convoys being attacked till Italy enters the War?

Please don't start quoting history facts to help this game, it would just destroy it totally if I start stating historical facts to keep dismantling such a crappy product in this present state.

At this stage the game is a total loss for and it needs a major overhaul and I would love to see one fixing all this.

If it ever happens I'll be the first to praise such a beautiful game in graphical design and it would really deliver what I was always looking for as a WW2 game. A full reproduction of WW2 in Europe focused at battles and strategies, not at production and micro-management.

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
The game does quite well in simulating the convoys around Africa, with the convoys from the British Colonies.

My god how can you even say that. ALL convoys are routed through the Med, NONE through the Atlantic and this is supposed to be a good simulation??? Please be fair and states this is not the case.

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
Get over your drop-jawed amazement over how thing were designed in the game, and come up with reasonable ways to deal with the circumstances.

I bought a product, I didn't sign to salvage it. I'm a player not a designer.

When someone sells a faulty car then you go back and ask to fix it or get a new one and it never did happen to me that the garage asks me to get my hands dirty to tell them how to replace the engine [X(]

If this can't be fixed by the designers then they have to change jobs and stay away from this business. As I say many players crave for good fantasy games and this game have some very nice sides to it but as to simulates WW2 it's a serious business when it means doing a classic style strategic wargame.

[gwgardner]

Funny. In my current game, I have sunk lots of STPs (convoys) off the WESTERN coast of Africa. Ask Chocolino to confirm that. Both German and Italian subs ranging in the sea zones representing the South Atlantic, the Cape, the Indian Ocean.

Once again Polonthi, you're making definitive statements that are just not factual.

I'm bored and disgusted responding to you, but do so on the off chance that there are prospective purchasers who may get a totally mistaken impression from reading your outlandish and overstated posts.

[Petiloup]

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Funny. In my current game, I have sunk lots of STPs (convoys) off the WESTERN coast of Africa. Ask Chocolino to confirm that. Both German and Italian subs ranging in the sea zones representing the South Atlantic, the Cape, the Indian Ocean.

Once again Polonthi, you're making definitive statements that are just not factual.

I'm bored and disgusted responding to you, but do so on the off chance that there are prospective purchasers who may get a totally mistaken impression from reading your outlandish and overstated posts.

The NORTH-ATLANTIC!!! gosh please open Wikipedia as I think you can do that and read about the Battle of the Atlantic. The Western Coast of Africa was of minor substance in that case.

THIS was the main fear of UK surrendering from Churchill own statement and it's not represented in this game.

What more can I state to show you how right I am and that my statement is more than fair.

[Razz1]

There is no way you have not received any convoy losses until Italy enters the war.
That is impossible.

The Americans haven't even entered the war in order for convoys to be lost from the USA.

[Petiloup]

Well I got a few when the Kriegsmarine went on it's suicide run to the British colonies but it was the whole Germany Navy including all BB, CA and Subs.

Luckily I spot it with my Royal Navy deployments as soon as they entered the Atlantic Ocean and went to follow them each turn delivering tons of damage with my CV's. The only moment I got losses on my Convoys was when the German Navy entered the sea zone near the British Colonies as all the convoys are routed from there to Suez and then around North Africa to the UK.

So I stopped the Convoys till the German Navy was throwing a towel and moving back to Germany which of course she never did manage, then I resumed the convoys till Italy entered the War.

Then I did throw the towel after loosing 100 transports in one turn which was almost all of them.

So I could do the same with the Italian, stop the convoys, destroy the Italian Navy and then go back into business but this is a patch on a bigger problem and I would rather wait a real patch that would let the player decides it's own convoy routes.

That would solve everything nice and easy.

[Petiloup]

ORIGINAL: Razz
The Americans haven't even entered the war in order for convoys to be lost from the USA.

The USA were selling tons of goods to the UK before they did enter the war even before the Lend-Lease program which started in March 1941 which is nine months before the entered of the USA into the war.

There is tons of reference on the web to substantiate this and the most easy is Wikipedia of course.

[Razz1]

Yes, we are well aware of that and it is modeled in the game.

[Petiloup]

ORIGINAL: Razz
Yes, we are well aware of that and it is modeled in the game.

Indeed I have seen some events now playing the allies and I got a convoy of 16 STP done between the US and the UK.

I mean 16 STP as compared to 40 to 80 per turn from the British colonies, it can hardly be seen like a successful model, I'm sorry.

By the way this convoy didn't suffer even 1 loss so far after being established nine months ago.

Can't say the same for the one going through the med.

So here is the simulation:

There 1 Italian sub in the Coast of Tunisia against 2 BB, 4 CV and 11 CA.

[Petiloup]

Convoy resolution he managed to sunk 20% of my convoys for the week [&:]

And I guess I would be the only one to find that abnormal?

Could you please watch Das Boat (or even better read the Battle of the Atlantic) and start the realize that U-Boats could be deadly but weren't that fancy once being chased.

This Submarine should have been able to do absolutely zero and get all the chance to be sunk if trying to hit the convoy.

[doomtrader]

send your ships to hunt the enemy subs

[Petiloup]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

send your ships to hunt the enemy subs

OH thank you I didn't think about that at all [:D]

Did you ever try to play this game and see how that works? you hardly hit them once while they keep sinking close to 100% of all convoys. So no point.

It's far more efficient to cancel the convoys, use the CV's and the land based aircraft and keep hitting the enemy fleet as more they are the faster they are sunk. I'm calling that the Pinball effect.

It's like a big pinball machine, you drop a bomb and it keep bouncing against enemy ships (the more the better), exploding each time with devastating effects. Use a lot of air units to destroy enemy ships very fast.

In a few weeks there was no Italian navy to speak of that way, well luckily to keep the fun the AI cheated like crazy to produce 3 to 5 naval unit each turn including BB and 1 CV at one time.

At the end I had most of my convoys, no Italian navy so to speak and the Atlantic ocean is very pacific [:D]

Indeed it's not a simulation.

[Razz1]

Please stop jumping to conclusions. That is the start of lend lease.
It gets larger.


Your jumping to conclusions about lend lease and testing of the game.
The game was tested. NO game is released with all features functioning as you see fit.
Many are known. More than you think. When the publisher/designer says go now or never release it. You Go.

And yes, losses were an easy 20% early in the war for convoys.

Anyhow, I'm only trying to help you. I understand your frustrations and view point.
I see it and have shared it. I agree with many of the things you point out, whether it be little or large.

Please keep pointing out your improvements/suggestions. However, can you be a little more positive in pointing some thing out?

It goes allot farther than this game sucks bla bla bla...

Also, try the Third Reich Scenario. I believe it it is more to your expectations. Feel free to offer suggestions to improve that scenario.

tm.asp?m=3042300


You know... somethings in life we want, but can't get because of technicalities.

ORIGINAL: Polonthi

ORIGINAL: Razz
Yes, we are well aware of that and it is modeled in the game.

Indeed I have seen some events now playing the allies and I got a convoy of 16 STP done between the US and the UK.

I mean 16 STP as compared to 40 to 80 per turn from the British colonies, it can hardly be seen like a successful model, I'm sorry.