Economics Quiz

[JLPOWELL]

In the interest of debunking the giant production capacity of the 3rd Reich myth I will post a few military production trivia. All fairly easy no peaking online or at books just take your best guess:

First Question:

Based on total aircraft production during the war rank the following countries top to bottom.

These are the top 8 producers of military aircraft during WW2.

Reorder by Rank (currently alphabetical)

Canada
France
Germany
Italy
Japan
Soviet Union
United Kingdom
United States


Hints California would rank pretty high on this list. France wasn't in the war very long.

[doomtrader]

USA
USSR
UK
Germany
Japan
Italy
Canada
France

IIRC USA produces about 30% of all planes

[doomtrader]

BTW,
I love WW2 posters

[JLPOWELL]

The posters are great aren't they. They are mostly public domain as well so you can put them in your games[:D]

Pretty good guess Got the top 5 correct and France but Canada outproduced Italy in aircraft.

Note Germany number 4 and Italy is number 7 add Japan at number 5 and and its pretty clear the air war was won on the factory floor as well as the sky.

USA 324,750
USSR 143,145
UK 131,549
Germany 119,307
Japan 76,320
Canada 16,431 Ay [:D]
Italy 11,122
France 4,016

US production alone was nearly 3x German and were in the war for two fewer years. US production was about 5x German per year. In addition many US aircraft were 4 engine bombers like B-17 and B-29 much more expensive than single engine fighters.

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

USA
USSR
UK
Germany
Japan
Italy
Canada
France

IIRC USA produces about 30% of all planes

[JLPOWELL]

Next question

Which country ...
Built the most subs?
Destroyed the most shipping (tons)?
Which Country was number 2 in shipping destruction?

[JLPOWELL]

Here is one more:

Which labor pool produced the most war goods?

German Slave labor
German paid factory workers
All Axis occupied nations
American women
Soviet Collectives

[doomtrader]

in currency? in tonns?

[JLPOWELL]

Pretty much have to use economic value to compare anything even slightly different.

A ton of gravel has a war winning value but not as much as a ton of coal which is of course less valuable (for war winning or for sale) than a ton of aluminum. And of course a ton of B-29 has even more war winning value. And to carry this to the logical extreme a ton of plutonium....[:D]

Short answer: by currency value of products. (more specifically labor added value) I could have worded the question better...

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

in currency? in tonns?

[doomtrader]

So can we compare worker's value in GULAGs with the value of work in factory in California?

[JLPOWELL]

Absolutely (if you pardon the pun); we are of course talking about economic output... The point I wanted to make with the 'question' is that the Nazi economic system was not only cruel and barbaric but inefficient and stupid as well.

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

So can we compare worker's value in GULAGs with the value of work in factory in California?

[battlevonwar]

Yes I agree, Germans really were worthless in terms of production. Arrogance?

In brackets my guess:

German Slave labor(3)
German paid factory workers(2)
All Axis occupied nations(5)
American women(1)
Soviet Collectives(4)

My guess of these choices

[doomtrader]

This is my bet:

American women
All Axis occupied nations
Soviet Collectives
German paid factory workers
German Slave labor

[JLPOWELL]

I don't have rankings, Just know that the US female workforce outproduced the entire German economy (65% US of aircraft workers for example were women) The astonishing thing is that Germany did as well as it did during the war. Economically and politically they were backward and of course monumentally arrogant overconfident. Much of this stems from the racial policies which were barbaric in the extreme.

US GDP during years 1939 to 1945 was always over 200% of Germany and was over nearly 300% in 1943 then over 300% in 1944 and the war ended so you really can't count the nearly 500% in 1945.

UK GDP (not counting commonwealth) stayed pretty steady at just over 80% of Germany from 1940 onward. Heroism and military prowess did not decide the war the political will to sustain losses (particularly in the USSR) manpower and superior production were the deciding factors.

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

Yes I agree, Germans really were worthless in terms of production. Arrogance?

In brackets my guess:

German Slave labor(3)
German paid factory workers(2)
All Axis occupied nations(5)
American women(1)
Soviet Collectives(4)

My guess of these choices

[LiquidSky]

I remember reading a book a long time ago about why the Americans had such an incredible growth of military production.

It had a lot to do with the Democrat government trying to stimulate the Depression economy by getting capitalists to build factorys to produce anything. The longterm plan being to convert these factories over to produce for the future war. The infrastructure built in the 30's was put to good use in the 40's.

In contrast, the Germans basically went into the war with factories still producing non-military items. They assumed that their existing army was not only good enough for their needs but could disband parts of it to use the manpower in agriculture.

I would go so far to say that Short-Sighted thinking is a German characteristic.

[aspqrz02]

Maybe not completely wrong, but not really correct.

AIUI the reason the US was able to expand production so much was *partly* because of the effects of the Great Depression ... there was a lot of spare capacity being underutilised ... the war, and the leadup to US entry when the UK and France made large orders with US industry, led to that capacity being utilised and then expanded.

As for the Germans, misleading and wrong. I suggest reading Tooze's "Wages of Destruction" which is comprehensive, current, and will put you right.

Simply put, however, Germany's main problem was a lack of resources (and the lack of wherewithal to buy them) more than a lack of factories coupled with an inefficient and unmechanised agricultural sector that gave them a choice between having a mobilised army in the field or feeding the population of Germany. Either/Or.

The Germans mobilised for war in 1939 knowing they would have to win, then steal Poland's harvest and let the Poles starve, in order to feed their own people.

Also, their centralised attempts to outproduce the US (especially) failed, largely because of the corrupt, inefficient, and counterproductive nature of the Nazi state "organisation" (using the word extremely loosely).

The Nazis organised things under political fiefdoms interested largely in empire building and point scoring*, the US organised things under industralists interested largely in efficiency.

* NB: Yes. Even Speer. Perhaps especially Speer. Read "Wages of Destruction"

Phil

[JLPOWELL]

All valid points but my main thrust regarding Germany inefficiency stands. Slave Labor wasteful in labor and resources. The centralized economy added to the problem, and I agree they were severely limited by lack of resources. They didn't have enough of nearly anything from resources to manpower (except perhaps coal) and were wasteful in many cases misusing what they had. The cruel raciest policies caused some of the most decisive manpower losses before the war even began. Much of the top scientific talent the allies had (Manhattan Project on down) were essentially political refugees from fascist regimes. The Nazi purge of talented manpower was had significant adverse effects on their entire economy, not unlike Stalin's purge of military leadership.

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

All valid points but my main thrust regarding Germany inefficiency stands. Slave Labor wasteful in labor and resources. The centralized economy added to the problem, and I agree they were severely limited by lack of resources. They didn't have enough of nearly anything from resources to manpower (except perhaps coal) and were wasteful in many cases misusing what they had. The cruel raciest policies caused some of the most decisive manpower losses before the war even began. Much of the top scientific talent the allies had (Manhattan Project on down) were essentially political refugees from fascist regimes. The Nazi purge of talented manpower was had significant adverse effects on their entire economy, not unlike Stalin's purge of military leadership.

Indeed, I do not disagree with your point regarding forced/slave labour ... indeed, I agree with it entirely.

Manpower problems were, indeed, considerable ... but, strangely enough, in one area the Nazis (very unpublically) backed down from their pre-war policies ...

Women.

Pre-war = Kinder, Kuche, Kirche ("Barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen" ... very loosely ... literally "Children, Kitchen and Church"). They fired almost all, if not all, female public servants (Doctors, Lawyers etc.) and largely closed the Universities to women (at least in "nontraditional" subjects ... certainly Medicine, Law, Engineering, Public Administration ... dunno for sure about Humanities).

War = Reversed rapidly and entirely. Women dominated universities by, IIRC, 1942-43 ... even Medicine, Law and Engineering ... women were encouraged to take up industrial jobs, and even served as Flak/Searchlight crews, many being killed "in the line of duty" in the latter role ... of course, it wasn't done in any consistently useful way (even the University enrolments would only have started coming online by the end of the war).

So the Nazis could bend to reality in some ways ... just not well enough.

Phil

[battlevonwar]

Definitely, though look at all that luck? Had the Germans used their brains instead of the fanatical insane ideology. i.e. tons of undesirables could have been conscripted or brought to Industrial/high end scientific work. Millions and Millions of Eastern European Races to serve the Military gladly welcoming with open arms freedom from an extremely oppressive regime.

Plus as I've read, heard...Germany didn't go into full wartime production? I could never understand this nor comprehend the foolishness in it. You go to War, you cannot be worried about how the People at home are feeling, you're committed. Arrogance all over the board...

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

All valid points but my main thrust regarding Germany inefficiency stands. Slave Labor wasteful in labor and resources. The centralized economy added to the problem, and I agree they were severely limited by lack of resources. They didn't have enough of nearly anything from resources to manpower (except perhaps coal) and were wasteful in many cases misusing what they had. The cruel raciest policies caused some of the most decisive manpower losses before the war even began. Much of the top scientific talent the allies had (Manhattan Project on down) were essentially political refugees from fascist regimes. The Nazi purge of talented manpower was had significant adverse effects on their entire economy, not unlike Stalin's purge of military leadership.

[doomtrader]

How about some simpler questions?
FOr example how many Pz IV Germans built in 1942?

[JLPOWELL]

Since no one answered without checking... 880 in 1942 of a total production of 9,870 per Wikipedia (other sources give total of just over 13,000 for all years)
The 2nd most produced German Tank...

Which German tank had more produced?

On the allied side production of M4 Sherman variants exceeded 50,000

What tank variant was produced in even larger numbers?