Partisans

[Farfarer61]

After game after game, I have now decided that the modelling of these critters is game breaker. Six weeks of Army Group paralysis when there has never been a lapse in garrison obligations is ridiculous. The penalty of a partisan attack should be that RR repair squads are 'sucked' into repair (immediately and to full effect) behind the lines, rather than whatever expansion of the RR grid they were embarked upon. Furthermore, the Axis 'reward' for shattering a unit is a greater chance of partisans?

[Michael T]

They are the scourge of the game. They should not stop 100% of supply. Each partisan hit on a line should result in something a lot less than 100% loss of supply. And RR dudes should be able to move along any converted track with RR movement even if the track has been cut off.

I have suggested this before too, but all to no avail: That is why don't cities that are garrisoned above 100% have some kind of extra security measure within a radius of the city? Eg if a city is garrisoned by 150% then there is a 50% (or some % chance) less chance of a Partisan attack within say 5 hexes of said city.

I hate the partisan part of game when playing Axis because you can't do anything about it at all. Surely as C&C East I should be able to throw more resources at Partisans and thus reduce some of the effects.

[76mm]

Well they are frustrating for Sov players as well, hitting useless trunk lines, not providing any recon intel, and generally just sucking up supplies for no purpose 99% of the time unless somehow they hit both of the Germans' supply lines at the same time.

I've seen the movies, don't these guys have radios? Or brains enough to figure out which targets are important? Or that I'd really like to know where the panzers are?

[Michael T]

No, they have no brains [:D]

[wurger54]

Six weeks of Army Group paralysis when there has never been a lapse in garrison obligations is ridiculous.

Have not experienced this. If I had I would feel differently. Right now I've got the partisans under control.

[Ron]

In the early part of the game they can indeed be a game breaker - maintaining garrisons doesn't change that. Once the trunk lines are established then they are a mere nuisance. It doesn't help that the RR units can't use rail movement if the line behind them has been cut or that Night Fighter intercepting is broken allowing Partisan supply runs with impunity.

[Balou]

@ Michael T

And RR dudes should be able to move along any converted track with RR movement even if the track has been cut off.

Have the devs ever provided a reasonable explanation for the converted hexes beyond damaged tracks not beeing usable ?

[timmyab]

The partisan side of this game doesn't work very well.I think it's a by-product of the rail network being too abstracted.
Ideally they would cause supply to be reduced, not cut altogether.
Garrisoning cities to 100% doesn't make a noticeable difference in my experience.
I think partisan activity should be proportionally related on their distance to the nearest enemy unit, whether in cities or not.Axis security units would have a bonus in this regard.
I like the idea of partisans being able to do recon on Axis units behind the lines.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Balou
Have the devs ever provided a reasonable explanation for the converted hexes beyond damaged tracks not beeing usable ?

It is just a basic design issue; the Russians have the same problem if a German spearhead cuts off an isolated section of track, nothing beyond the break can be used. This happens frequently, for instance, in and around the Crimea, where it is a huge pain.

[Flaviusx]

The partisan war should be abstracted more, imo. Just remove all the security forces on the Axis side, and all the on map partisan cadres. Partisan activity would be represented as strikes against Axis rail cap, with effects varying over time. Provide a holding box for regular Axis forces to suppress partisan activity further, which the Axis player could contribute regular forces to or withdraw from as he pleases. Get the micromanagement out of it and clean up the map some.

As much as many Axis players plainly hate dealing with it, so do I as a Soviet player. I have little or no control over it, it just happens, I have to spend a lot of time and forces on air drops which have completely random effects. It's frustrating for everybody and deeply unfun. The game's focus should be operational, and this isn't an operational thing at all and therefore ought to be kept in the background and abstracted as much as possible because it integrates very poorly with the main systems of the game.

[Balou]

@76mm
My point is: it simply doesn't make sense that rails beyond the damaged section are unusable. They could be used e.g. to bring back partisan hunters, in which case rail transport increases their range. The fact that the Sovs face the same problem doesn't make this rather simplistic RR philosophy anything better.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The partisan war should be abstracted more, imo. Just remove all the security forces on the Axis side, and all the on map partisan cadres. Partisan activity would be represented as strikes against Axis rail cap, with effects varying over time. Provide a holding box for regular Axis forces to suppress partisan activity further, which the Axis player could contribute regular forces to or withdraw from as he pleases. Get the micromanagement out of it and clean up the map some.

As much as many Axis players plainly hate dealing with it, so do I as a Soviet player. I have little or no control over it, it just happens, I have to spend a lot of time and forces on air drops which have completely random effects. It's frustrating for everybody and deeply unfun. The game's focus should be operational, and this isn't an operational thing at all and therefore ought to be kept in the background and abstracted as much as possible because it integrates very poorly with the main systems of the game.

Yep, I agree. It is a complete time waster, and should be more abstracted. Possibly there could be some way for the Axis to assign more units to antipartisan activity, thus lessening effects, and some way for the Soviets to incite more partisan effects in a certain area for a limited time, simulating orders to coordinate partisan activity with offensives.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Balou
My point is: it simply doesn't make sense that rails beyond the damaged section are unusable. They could be used e.g. to bring back partisan hunters, in which case rail transport increases their range. The fact that the Sovs face the same problem doesn't make this rather simplistic RR philosophy anything better.

My point is that both sides would benefit from fixing this rather strange mechanic.

[Michael T]

Yes Flav, I agree and have suggested same many moons ago. Get rid of it and abstract it.

[eschrenker]

First time posting and relatively new to the game. First real PBEM to turn 45 ongoing and am playing Axis. Flavius I can't agree with you more. I had two separate occasions where a partisan unit of 200 men virtually cutoff all supplies to 500K men on a front. That is just not realistic. In 1941 if the Russian gets lucky with them they can make a big difference. From 1942 on they aren't that big of a factor. Being a student of history I know that Partisans didn't have that kind of effect as many of you have affirmed above.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: TFXO
I had two separate occasions where a partisan unit of 200 men virtually cutoff all supplies to 500K men on a front. That is just not realistic. In 1941 if the Russian gets lucky with them they can make a big difference.

Well, within the game's simplistic logistics model, what is unrealistic about it? The Germans have deliberately based all of their supplies on a single rail line which runs through several hundred miles of sparsely-populated terrain threatened by many small groups of hostile, armed men. I would think that 200 men could do a real job on a rail line overnight.

Frankly since the Germans tend to focus all of their rail conversion on one or two lines, I think it would be more realistic for the partisans to cut these lines more often, not less, because their strategic value is so obvious, and they are so vulnerable.

If the Germans don't want to accept this vulnerability, they should focus on creating a more robust rail network--problem solved.

[Farfarer61]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: TFXO
I had two separate occasions where a partisan unit of 200 men virtually cutoff all supplies to 500K men on a front. That is just not realistic. In 1941 if the Russian gets lucky with them they can make a big difference.

Well, within the game's simplistic logistics model, what is unrealistic about it? The Germans have deliberately based all of their supplies on a single rail line which runs through several hundred miles of sparsely-populated terrain threatened by many small groups of hostile, armed men. I would think that 200 men could do a real job on a rail line overnight.

Frankly since the Germans tend to focus all of their rail conversion on one or two lines, I think it would be more realistic for the partisans to cut these lines more often, not less, because their strategic value is so obvious, and they are so vulnerable.

If the Germans don't want to accept this vulnerability, they should focus on creating a more robust rail network--problem solved.

and then it's not a game. Enjoy the AI.

[hfarrish]

OTOH, it seems like partisans, while annoying to everyone (I really enjoy running around making sure enough level bombers are set to night missions) are not really a big deal issue either. Given that switching partisans to an abstraction is likely a major fix, I'd rather see the devs spend their time on other things (logistics!!).

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Farfarer
and then it's not a game. Enjoy the AI.

Ooops, I keep forgetting, it is not fun for German players unless they can abuse the logistics model so that they can take Kharkov on Turn 4 or whatever. Nothing, including those pesky partisans, should be allowed to interfere with their progress. My mistake...

[hfarrish]

+1