When there is no real northern border....

[schmolywar]

In my second Case Blue campaign PBEM and the germans have advanced beyond Voronezh in the north.

Since there is no real northern border that means the germans dont have the need for an extended flank security and can put all their allies in the attack instead.

As we know the germans had their northern flank resting on the Don.

So advancing on a wide front is definitely the right strategy in this game and I have no idea as the soviets how to defend this.

This has got to be a well known problem with limited map wargames. How is this normally dealt with?

[olivier34]

In my PBEM I have advance east of Voronezh (minor OKH orders). Now if the german has the order to take Stalingrad and drive into the caucase, I doubt that he will be abble to push north and achieve those objectives in the same time. Who knows...

[schmolywar]

Oh he does. Basically the whole front collapses (at least in my games). Im not able to hold 700K+ germans with 300K soviets. The prestige objectives does in no way make up for this. Go for broke for Saratov and beyond and all the other stuff doesnt matter. Stalingrad is much easer to take when your converging on it from both west, south and north

[olivier34]

300 000 soviets left...your opponent can clearly push everywhere and of course following the north border of the map is really helpfull for him. Good luck [;)]

[Keunert]

we should build a soviet player aa club.

[LiquidSky]

My friend has anchored the north with the 5th Tank army and some other army....he is dug in quite strongly along that river that flows down through Voronezh. I doubt I will be pushing along the North edge. Voronezh itself has about 200 stacking points worth of stuff in it, and I am not even sure if I will be able to outflank it enough to take it in time. I dont think it is a problem of the Germans pushing along the north so much as the Russians not defending it.

[schmolywar]

Hex 66.13 just south of Davidovkao is the key to unhinge the whole Voronezh defense. I fortified the area and made sure to put counterattacking units around it to blunt the blitzkrieg units (and I sure did to some extent), but there is only so much you can do before the germans dominate the spot with their infantry. The Don can be crossed in several places and the soviets cannot be as strong everywhere along it.

Im absolutely positive there are better defenders than I, but I doubt many can actually hold any serious assault across the Don and buy the time necessary to get sufficient reinforcements in the area.

Im talking about the full Case Campaign here, not the short version.

[aspqrz02]

I'd guess, really, that there should be a triggerable reinforcement event to cover this ... just to add to the uncertainty ... but have the reinforcements (Soviet) appear at some inconveniently located hex along the northern map edge to represent the Germans, in real life, probably (almost certainly) having a wide open gap in their off map northern flank.

A randomly triggerable event would force the German to act more historically, I'd guess ... especially since neither side really has much in the way of the historical rear-area security elements that were actually in play.

Phil

[schmolywar]

^ agreed. I think as more people play the full campaign in PBEM they will see these points more clearly.

[Isokron]

Im the german player in those games and I have to agree that the northern edge of the map is a weak point in the game. I would say either give the soviet player the ability to spawn units/draw supply from all the northern hexes east of the don or define an area in the north of the map with significantly more partisans or something to give the german player less incentives to achor his front there. Now it seems like a no brainer to just keep pushing at least up to the volga, which should give you a very secure flank if you ever need to go on the defensive (basically you only need to guard Saratov and supply problems will take care of the rest is my guess).

As schmolywar said defending around Voronezh just doesnt work since the german player can cross the don further south where its too winding to be effectivly defended (and has some convenient bridges) and then the soviet have to pull back from Voronezh or be pocketed.

[Redmarkus5]

Frankly, I would abandon any game against an opponent who used the map edge that way - what's the point of the game for either party?

[Isokron]

I suppose its a bit "gamey" but then again I usually try to play strategy games as well as possible within the given ruleset barring any obvious bug/exploits. I suppose you could see the northern border as an exploit in this game so I guess I wouldnt really mind it as a house rule not to do it if its clearly stated from the start.

[schmolywar]

I have no problem with it actually. Its something id do myself in this game because its so beneficial. Its an option to play ahistorical and it should be tried.

However, the game should maybe have features to discourage that strategy.

[rominet]

Until the problem is resolved by a patch (maybe), a simple HR could solve this trouble.
For example:
"germans must leave at least one unit per hex at the top of the map from the hex north of Terbuny until the east"

Of course, by "one unit", i mean a unit from the OOB start or with at least 1000 men, not a newly created unit filled with only 10 soldiers who are playing cards around a fire.[:D]

A trigger event should be a good solution.
Stalin and Stavka were very frightened by the fact that Voronezh could be a good starting base for an offensive toward Moscow and if i am not wrong, they sent a lot of troops in this sector when the germans reached the Don and captured Voronezh.

[Keunert]

my main concern in my current game are the wherabouts of the german mobile and armored troops of this sector. the axis will have to man a line anyway. more so as in most of my games my front at Voronezh is one of the better equipped on the entire map.
but if he moves all his Panzers and Panzergrenadiere elsewhere he will get a super spearhead. but then again this wouldn't be an unrealistic behaviour, or am i wrong?

[Bonners]

ORIGINAL: Keunert

my main concern in my current game are the wherabouts of the german mobile and armored troops of this sector. the axis will have to man a line anyway. more so as in most of my games my front at Voronezh is one of the better equipped on the entire map.
but if he moves all his Panzers and Panzergrenadiere elsewhere he will get a super spearhead. but then again this wouldn't be an unrealistic behaviour, or am i wrong?

Sounds about right to me. Going off the top of my head (at work, no books to reference), didnt the majority of 4th PZA head south after the capture of Voronezh following the west side of the Don? That is certainly what I am doing in my game against the AI. There are no more objectives further north so once the line of the Don is taken it is full steam south. I've transferred a corps to 2nd Army and they and the Hungarians will be holding the line, I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

[Keunert]

i understood the topic wrong... in one game against schmolnywar he choose to stand still at the Don. this was the right thing for him to do as we played Case Blue short. if you play the long one it would be better for the Axis player to keep the pressure on and push further. in my experience this will ultimately lead to a breakdown of all soviet fronts. but i never got that late into the campaign. Olivier and myself soon will now...

[LiquidSky]

The computer likes to keep giving me Anna as an objective, which is farther east along the north edge.

[Redmarkus5]

Sorry - I thought I read up the top that one player used the map edge to drive all the way to Saratov? Maybe I misunderstood...

[olivier34]

I had Anna as an objective too, that's why I did move a little east with 2A. I may be wrong but I don't think that the german player should move toward Saratov (Stalingrad and the oil fields are the objectives, right ?) and the use of the north map edge sounds gamey to me.