Most common WP tanks in 1989?

IronManBeta · Post by **IronManBeta** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:20 am

Since everyone here but me seems to be a veteran of the era we are trying to portray, I thought I'd ask this little question:

What were the most common variants of the principle Soviet tanks in the WP inventory in 1989? I'm sure there is no one right answer, but I'd be interested to hear what people think.

FWIW, these are my notes:

1st line units: T-80U or UD (with or without AT-11 gun launched ATGM). Some upgraded but not relabeled T-80B and T-80 also possible?

2nd line units: T-72B and B1 (indistinguishable to me, the 'M' series did not start until 1990). (Also some A and base models with lesser armour were still in inventory in 1989.)

3rd line units: T-64B, BV and R variants? T-62Ms?

Many of these tanks were rebuilt during their working lifetime with gun and armour upgrades but did not actually get officially renamed to a new variant even though they became the equivilent.

Can anyone shine a light on this? I don't want to feature a tank by name that would not actually have been on the battlefield in reasonable numbers in 1989.

Cheers all, Rob.

Jo van der Pluym · Post by **Jo van der Pluym** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:53 am

Originally posted by RobertCrandall

3rd line units: T-64B, BV and R variants? T-62Ms?

Rob

The T-64B and variants where also earmarked for the Soviet 1st line units. In the GSFG where the 3rd Shock, 2nd Guards Tank and 20 Guards army equiped with the T-64.
The SFG was also equiped with the T-64. And most of the A units in the Belorussian, Carpathian, Odessa, Kiev and Moscow Military Districts where also equiped with the T-64.

The 3rd line soviet MRD's where equiped with T-55 variants
The 3rd line soviet TD's where equiped with T-62 or T-55 variants.

The 3rd line NSWP units where equiped with T-55 or T-55 variants. There where some NSWP units that where equiped with the T-34.

byron13 · Post by **byron13** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:56 am

Sorry, I'm not going to be of any help. All I knew was that all Soviet tanks were bad.

Where are you, Robert? I'm thinking that Ft. Knox - the center for the U.S. armored forces - might have some good information. Or they may be able to point us to another source that's not classified. Would you like me to approach them? Ft. Knox isn't too terribly far away from me and, if required, I could run up for a weekend or something to do some research.

byron13 · Post by **byron13** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:57 am

Originally posted by Jo van der Pluym

Rob

The T-64B and variants where also earmarked for the Soviet 1st line units. In the GSFG where the 3rd Shock, 2nd Guards Tank and 20 Guards army equiped with the T-64.
The SFG was also equiped with the T-64. And most of the A units in the Belorussian, Carpathian, Odessa, Kiev and Moscow Military Districts where also equiped with the T-64.

The 3rd line soviet MRD's where equiped with T-55 variants
The 3rd line soviet TD's where equiped with T-62 or T-55 variants.

The 3rd line NSWP units where equiped with T-55 or T-55 variants. There where some NSWP units that where equiped with the T-34.

What source are you using for this information? For what years would this be accurate?

Jo van der Pluym · Post by **Jo van der Pluym** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 1:06 am

Originally posted by byron13

What source are you using for this information? For what years would this be accurate?

Byron13

I have differend sources. Some books (Osprey), websites and some friends on the web.

The primary source is a Swedish friend (Naval Officer on a FAC(M)), who has much books etc., about the Warsaw Pact units)

And it's accurate for the year 1988 to 1990.

thantis · Post by **thantis** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 2:33 am

T-72's were built almost exclusively for export & WP allied units (such as East Germany, Poland, & Czechoslovakia). Towards the end of the 1980's almost every Soviet unit in Eastern Europe was using T-80s or T-64s.

Independent tank regiments had either T-80s, T-64s, or even T-62s or T-55's. Motorized Rifle Divisions had slightly older equipment in the tank regiments, though not by much.

It was the 2nd & 3rd (and mobilization only) tier divisions in the Soviet interior that were almost exclusively still equipped with T-62s and T-55's.

IronManBeta · Post by **IronManBeta** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:29 am

Yup, now I'm getting confused! A lot of this makes some sense but clearly this is not an easy one to answer....

I dug out my copy of the IISS "The Military Balance 1986-1987" and looked up the USSR. Their inventory estimate at that time (Autumn 86) was 1,400 T-80, 8,500 T-72, 9,300 T-64, 13,700 T-62 and 19,900 T54/55. (There were also 1,200 PT-76 light tanks still kicking around - which surprises me.)

I assume that these numbers are approximately correct and that they didn't change all that much by 1989 except for more T-80s being produced, and the various variants being upgraded gradually.

There was a real pecking order as to who got the newest equipment. I don't know it exactly off the top of my head, but Soviet category 1 tank divisions in the interior of the USSR were at the head of the list and category 3 MRDs of satellite allies were at the bottom. Would anyone care to propose one? We know that Cat 1 divisions had it over Cat 2 who in turn left only the oldest stuff to the Cat 3 cadres. Soviet internal units got the good stuff prior to any external Soviet unit getting it, and then favoured satellites (East Germany and who else? Poland?) got next crack. Tank divisions were taken care of prior to motor rifle divisions. Generally they tried to keep all tanks in one division the same vintage, but when the could not, the reserve tank unit was the last to be upgraded, and the 'infantry' tanks second last (?). Can't quite assemble that into a defined list though...

Thanks everyone for taking a shot at this. This has been sitting at the back of my mind quietly driving me nuts for the last few months. If it was easy, I wouldn't have asked for your help!

Cheers all, Rob.

thantis · Post by **thantis** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 4:02 pm

Category 1 units in East Germany got the highest priority (with the exception of some Category 1 units in the Western Soviet Union, which got some of the equipment the leadership didn't want the West getting a good look at).

Category 1 units elsewhere were second, followed by Category 2 units (including those on the Chinese border), with your Category 3 units scrapping the bottom of the barrel. Mobilization-Only divisions got worse than that, some even being equipped with old T-34/85s & BRT-152's (copies of our M3 Halftrack).

Of the Warsaw Pact Armies, East Germany & Czechoslovakia were equipped the best (about equivalent to Category 2 Soviet Divisions), while Poland was a close second. Hungary was next, while Romania & Bulgaria were near the bottom of the ladder (with Romanian forces equipped with bad copies of Russian designs).

Blackhorse · Post by **Blackhorse** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 9:38 pm

Rob,

Here's a link to what looks to be a fairly comprehensive Orbat and TO&E for the Warsaw Pact as of June, 1989. Seems to be exactly what you are looking for

http://orbat.com/site/data/historical/n ... wpact.html

As discussed above, most front-line Soviet divisions have T-80s, some have T-64Bs. Other Pact countries have T-72s. Category B and C divisions have T-62s and T-55s. (One Rumanian reserve unit has T-34s!).

If you have problems accessing the site, let me know, and I can email you a copy of the OOB.

byron13 · Post by **byron13** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 10:26 pm

Wow! Great stuff. Isn't the internet amazing?

Sabre21 · Post by **Sabre21** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 11:38 pm

Hi Robert

Erik sent me over here since I have been hanging out on the UV and WiTP forums. Somehow I overlooked this one I guess.

Anyways....let me know what you might need in the way of OOB's or particular data. I still have all my reserach material from a couple years ago...probably need to tweak it some since I have received some excellent data from guys like Jo and a few others.

If I don't have it on hand...I might be able to find where the data is as long as it's not classified. All my material to date has come from open, albeit rare in some cases, sources.

I have tons of photos...35mm slides which I can scan...I was planning on doing that sometime anyways...just never seem to have the time due to work. Some of the photos are personally taken from airshows, mayday parades, and a few other un-named locales:)

My home email is sabre21@adelphia.net

Just give me an idea what you need.

Andy Johnson/Sabre21

Blackhorse · Post by **Blackhorse** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 12:05 am

Originally posted by byron13
Wow! Great stuff. Isn't the internet amazing?

Yep. I trip over a brilliantly researched report by Andy Johnson on the internet, and two posts later A.J. himself (Sabre21) pops up!

As Carly Simon once sang, "these are the good old days!"

I've got a question for Andy -- in 1989 (Rob's target date) which Soviet divisions were likely to have still been equipped with T-62s? And did the Soviets outfit any of their own divisions with T-72s -- or was that strictly for export?

IronManBeta · Post by **IronManBeta** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:06 am

Originally posted by Blackhorse
Rob,

Here's a link to what looks to be a fairly comprehensive Orbat and TO&E for the Warsaw Pact as of June, 1989. Seems to be exactly what you are looking for

http://orbat.com/site/data/historical/n ... wpact.html

Er, I blush to mention it but I had found that site and printed out that whole wonderful list a few months ago. It went into my OB notes in my project binder and when that got too fat, I divided it into a 'coding' binder and a 'research' binder. Then I forgot all about the research binder until I looked up your link cited above. Sometimes my tunnel vision is just too tunnelled!

The esteemed Sabre21's list does indeed make an excellent starting point and with his permission I will look it over and try to satisfy my own curiousity without diverting the thread with wild goose chases! Many thanks all!!

Cheers, Rob.

IronManBeta · Post by **IronManBeta** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:10 am

Originally posted by Sabre21
I have tons of photos...

In case Marc S doesn't see this directly, I sent him an email drawing attention to this very generous offer. Now that he is Art God he will doubtless want to talk to you directly!

Cheers, Rob.

Sabre21 · Post by **Sabre21** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:40 am

Hail Blackhorse (11th ACR)

Let me wipe the tears away...I sure miss the good ol days when we all new who the bad guys were..hehe.

To answer your question...all of the European based divisions were equipped with modern armor..T80U, T64B...the divisions in Afghanistan still had T62's as did many of the divisions inside the SU. The Cat 1's usually had the better armor...but I'm sure you know that.

As for T72's....there were different grades of T72's. I myself did not realize this until after the Gulf war. As it turns out...the higher quality T-72's were for Warsaw Pact use and the ones not meeting quality control were exported out to places like Iraq.

I was at Ft Hood years back looking over some of the captured equipment when some guy was telling me about how they couldnt understand why some of the tanks varied in weight by up to 5 tons when they were bringing them back to the States. So a couple were literally cut open finding large bubbles in different parts of the armor. What was kinda funny about the whole thing was that on the right rear lower corner of the chassis...just inside the right track was a phrase stamped into the armor in Russian. When I saw it I had a good laugh...it read..."Not for Warsaw Pact use"....lol.

But to answer the question...T72's were mostly for export. The only Soviet unit I know of that ever received them was the 4th MRD stationed near Moscow that was their parade unit (kinda like our Old Guard), but they might even have gone to T80's by 89. I can't be certain if any other units may have been equipped with them inside the SU, I just never found any that did.

Sabre21

Sabre21 · Post by **Sabre21** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:45 am

It's kinda funny how that OOB got started. Back in the heyday of Talonsoft and TOAW II...I put this together to help Eric Rutins better define the OOB that was in the game. There were a few holes I filled in using Swag's based on what I new of existing units...totals of vehicles produced...etc...so there is most likely a few errors. I would love to get a few more Russians to help me on that. But anyways...I made it to support gaming. So feel free to use it. I might just have to update it again and see what newer info I can find.

Sabre21

Blackhorse · Post by **Blackhorse** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 5:46 pm

Originally posted by Sabre21
But to answer the question...T72's were mostly for export. The only Soviet unit I know of that ever received them was the 4th MRD stationed near Moscow that was their parade unit (kinda like our Old Guard), but they might even have gone to T80's by 89. I can't be certain if any other units may have been equipped with them inside the SU, I just never found any that did.

Sabre21

I suspected as much. I wondered only because Rob quoted a figure showing the Soviets had 8,500 T-72s on hand in the mid-80s -- seemed like a lot to have if they were just for export.

Re: T-62s. I noticed that whenever your excellent '89 Orbat matched specific tank types to Pact units they were either T-80/T-64/T-72 for the Cat 1s, or T-55s (and some T-34s) for the Cat 3s. It seems that like in Clancy's Red Storm Rising (where the T-80 equipped Russian units get worn down and replaced by T-55s) that the T-62 gets no respect.

thantis · Post by **thantis** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 7:58 pm

I seem to remember seeing some T-62's attached to the Army-level independent tank regiments (before being upgraded to T-64's & T-80s). I will check the Military Balance '92 when I get home to confirm.

Sabre21 · Post by **Sabre21** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 11:31 pm

I would have to re check my OOB...but The Soviets pretty much equipped their Cat 1 divisions with the T80 or T64.

The T72 was primarily used in non soviet Warsaw Pact Divisions (also for export). The T62 were used in many of the second echelon divisions found within the SU...some may have been Cat 1 but most were cat II. The T62 was never found in non soviet Warsaw pact units. The T55 was used to fill up many of the soviet Cat III and mobilization divisions. It was also used in the non soviet warsaw pact divisions.

There were some T34's left in storage...some can be found in a few of the Rumanian regiments...I can't remember where else at the moment. Many of these were converted to other types of vehicles and some even to farm tractors. One thing about the Russians...they rarely threw anything away...kinda like my mom:)

To give you guys a little history...back in the early eighties I remember when we started to receive photos of the next generation of soviet tanks. As it turns out what we were seeing were the early models of the T80, T72, and T64. There was a lot of confusion at first...many people thought that they were just variants of each other. None of these vehicles were known by their current designations. The T72 for a while was thought to be superior to the T64 since it showed up later. No one new at the time it was an export especially when it showed up in some of the soviet annual parades. The T80 was shrouded in secrecy for many years but we new it was there. A friend of mine was killed trying to get pictures of one. By 87 though the cat was out of the bag about the T80 and it was no surprise at the degree that the soviets went to in re-equipping their units. I recall photos of long trains of tarp covered tanks moving into the 8th Grds Army sector, but even with tarps..the T80 was obvious from the tracks.

Sabre21

IronManBeta · Post by **IronManBeta** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:49 am

Not having much to do this last weekend (ha!), I finally went through Sabre21's wonderful OB and compared to my notes from 1989 and 1994. Gosh, a lot has changed! I guess I shouldn't have been surprised but I was....

Operating on the basis of a 'snap, come as you are war', I was particularly interested in the distribution and location of the category 'A' (ie fully ready) divisions. Not being privvy to the war plans of those charge, I have made some assumptions:

1. That a total of six armies will be positioned right forward against the East German and Czech borders (2nd Gds Tank, 20th Gds, "28th" or equiv HQ flown in to take over East German 3rd or 5th GDR Army, 1st Czech and 4th Czech). Immediately behind these would be three more exploitation forces (3rd Shock, 1 Gds Tank, and 4th Guards in Czech). I also added in the two soviet divisions in Poland and considered all the Czech B divisions to be A based on the notes on the OB. That gave me a total of 19 tank, 21 motor rifle and 1 arty division that were split 27 Soviet, 6 East German and 8 Czech.

2. Based on the OB, this entire first echelon would have contained 32 T-80 regiments, 24 T-72, 22 T-64, 48 BMP 2/3, and 32 BTR regiments. I consider that to the answer to my original question, assuming that these units all had the latest (or near latest) variants of the vehicles in question.

3. The next echelon of forces would be the six Polish A divisions, the Soviet forces in Hungary (9th Gds Army), the two Unified Corps in the USSR proper, 5 airborne divisions (1 Polish) and a few other Cat A tank and MRD divisions within reach of the front in a reasonable time. There were also 9 more artillery divisions. Counting the unified corps as divisions, that makes 8 tank, 8 motor rifle, 9 arty and 5 airborne divisions. 24 are Soviet and 6 Polish. That works out to 19 more T-80 regiments, 6 T-72, 4 T-64, 3 T-55, 22 BMP 2/3, 10 BTR and 14 BMD (airborne).

4. There are still a large number of B and C divisions with much older equipment, but these I am less worried about right now.

These splits are pretty arbitrary but I now feel I have a better handle on what might have come through the gate had it really happened.

Cheers all, Rob.

Most common WP tanks in 1989?

Most common WP tanks in 1989?

Re: Most common WP tanks in 1989?

Re: Re: Most common WP tanks in 1989?

Re: Re: Re: Most common WP tanks in 1989?