No transport loading bug!

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EricLarsen
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No transport loading bug!

Post by EricLarsen »

I have seen a few players stating there's a bug with the loading of transports with ground troops and leaving behind little pieces of units. There is no game bug, only operator error problems because some players are not accounting for the room needed to transport supplies along with the ground troops. You can not load a 1,800 load cost unit on a 2,000 capacity transport because you need room for supplies! To load a 7,000 load cost regiment or brigade you need 3 x 3,000 transports. I use as a rule of thumb 1.5 times the load cost of a unit to determine the size of ship or ships I'll need to transport any unit. I also look to see what transports show first on the ship list of the tf so that I know which ground units to load first. If the big transports show first I select the largest ground units first, if the smallest transports show first I select the smallest units first. As a fail safe I save before creating my transport tf and load the units so that if something goes awry from what I planned I can easily and quickly go back and try it again a little differently. The problem comes from players picking too small a transport or transports to load ground units because they don't acount for the amount of supplies the transport will load with the ground units. A little forethought in this area will go a long way towards alleviating this problem for every player!
Eric Larsen
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Capt Cliff
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Post by Capt Cliff »

If this is true then the correct "load size" of the unit should be displayed! Troops plus supply equals load size! RIGHT? Then the load size display is wrong and it's a BUG! You should not have to learn this by trial and error!
Capt. Cliff
John Lansford
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Post by John Lansford »

Why can't the transports load troops and other cargo ships in the TF carry the supplies? I cannot think of a landing in 1942 that had the troop transport also carry supplies. They carried the unit's equipment, yes, but the supplies (fuel, ammo, food, etc) were carried by cargo ships, not the ships carrying the regiments themselves.

One problem that may be involved is the need to "combat load" a ship carrying a combat unit to an amphibious landing. For example, the 1st Marine Division had to combat load their equipment before landing at Guadalcanal. This used up more space in the ship than if it had been optimally loaded for transport, because some equipment simply had to be unloaded first in an amphibious landing. I don't know how inefficient combat loading was over the normal loading procedure, but it must have been significant.
popejoy1
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Not so fast...

Post by popejoy1 »

Hi!

In my experience, loading a single unit (e.g., size = 1400) onto a single transport (e.g., capacity = 1500) works for me every time, as does loading a single large unit (e.g., size = 3860) onto multiple transports (e.g., 2 @ capacity = 2000), provided the total capacity of the transports is enough for the single unit. When supplies are loaded, they've been loaded into residual space not used for transporting ground units, and have not precluded the loading of troops/equipment.

The "transport bug" happens to me when the the computer has to load multiple transports with multiple ground units, and it makes suboptimal loading decisions. For example, given transports of capacity 1500 and 3000, and ground units of size 2400 and 300, it will occasionally load the 300 size unit into the 3000-capacity ship, and partially load the 2400 size unit into the 1500-capacity ship.

We can work around it, either by providing lots of extra transports or by manually determining which ships will help carry each unit; however, I think either way is a pain.

My $0.02! :)

Paul
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ltfightr
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That has been my observation as well

Post by ltfightr »

Popejoy1
I have seen the same thing and that has been my complaint with troop loading. My task forces will load units and supplies to the leval of the transport but when loading large numbers of units it splits them in the manner you described. Ie 2 units 1=1700 load cost 1 unit 600 load cost 1 transport 3000 1 transport 1500 more often or not it will put the 1700 unit in the 1500 transport and leave a sub unit while the 3000 transport loads the 600 unit and a large load of supplies.
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John Lansford
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Post by John Lansford »

Under v1.40, I attempted to load a full sized base engineering force and a small fragment of another base force into three transports, two large ones (2000 capacity each) and an APD. Deciding to use what was being said here, I noticed how the ships were arranged in the TF (two big ones and then the APD), so I clicked on the full sized base unit first The base unit was a size 2800, so I figured the APD would still be available for the fragment of a unit. After I clicked to load both base units, I went back to the TF screen and all three transports were loading the larger base unit!

If the method of loading was as described here, the APD should have been available for the fragment (about 280 in size), since the two larger AP's should have easily held the 2800 point full size unit.
EricLarsen
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Better docs next time???

Post by EricLarsen »

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt Cliff
If this is true then the correct "load size" of the unit should be displayed! Troops plus supply equals load size! RIGHT? Then the load size display is wrong and it's a BUG! You should not have to learn this by trial and error!

Capt Cliff,
They certainly could have been more forthcoming in the manual as to how much supply gets loaded along with the troops and give us some kind of good guide for gauging the right ships for the transport job. Hopefully they will do a better job of giving examples and explaining these kind of things for WitP and future games. You are correct that we shouldn't have to learn how transporting troops and supplies works by a lot of trial and error, but then these games tend to have a significant learning curve to figure out how all the myriad details dovetail together and work.
Eric Larsen
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Close call

Post by EricLarsen »

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Lansford
Under v1.40, I attempted to load a full sized base engineering force and a small fragment of another base force into three transports, two large ones (2000 capacity each) and an APD. Deciding to use what was being said here, I noticed how the ships were arranged in the TF (two big ones and then the APD), so I clicked on the full sized base unit first The base unit was a size 2800, so I figured the APD would still be available for the fragment of a unit. After I clicked to load both base units, I went back to the TF screen and all three transports were loading the larger base unit!

If the method of loading was as described here, the APD should have been available for the fragment (about 280 in size), since the two larger AP's should have easily held the 2800 point full size unit.


John,
It sure is difficult to gauge how much transport one needs. But I still swear by my 1.5 rule where I get a ship or ships that have 1.5 times the load cost of the troops. For a 2,800 size unit that means 4,200 points of transport capacity. The way the game took that small APD to load the last of the big baseforce seems to lend credence to my 1.5 rule. Also make sure to see how ships are listed in the display. If the big ships are listed first then select the big units first to load. You can even sort by capacity in the ship screen and make sure your ships are listed the way you want. A lot of extra work fiddling around to get the ships to load right to be sure, but better than extra frustration several turns later when stragglers are left behind. I take it they are using a first-come-first-serve type of laoding scheme and that's why sometimes the laoding looks crazy. While it would be nice to have a loading sequence that's more easily manipulated as far as players being able to say load this unit on these ships and then load supplies to fill her up I doubt it would have been worth the programming work. But who knows, maybe they'll make it easier in WitP considering the trouble so many players are having in UV with loading troops.
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Post by elmo3 »

Something looks broken to me. I'm using 1.40 and just saw the following: An AP with a capacity of 1000 was given the task of loading a ground unit of size 978 using the "Load Troops Only" choice. Instead of loading the whole unit it broke the unit into components and only loaded part of it using 900 ops. At first I thought it didn't have enopugh ops to do more so I hit the refuel button. It then refueled using another 45 ops, so ops was not the issue. It should have loaded the whole unit but I had to use another AP to load the rest of the unit. According to the manual a transport should load the whole unit if it has the capacity, which it did, but that does not appear to be happening based on this example. Any thoughts? Thanks.

P.S. - It sure would be helpful if one of these patches came with an update to the manual reflecting the changes/clarifications of the last few months.
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Gabby
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Post by Gabby »

Transports will only use 900 op points during one turn to load troops. If there are more troops than 900 points can load the remainder will be loaded on following turns.
EricLarsen
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Troop loading

Post by EricLarsen »

[QUOTE]Originally posted by elmo3
Something looks broken to me. I'm using 1.40 and just saw the following: An AP with a capacity of 1000 was given the task of loading a ground unit of size 978 using the "Load Troops Only" choice. Instead of loading the whole unit it broke the unit into components and only loaded part of it using 900 ops. At first I thought it didn't have enopugh ops to do more so I hit the refuel button. It then refueled using another 45 ops, so ops was not the issue. It should have loaded the whole unit but I had to use another AP to load the rest of the unit. According to the manual a transport should load the whole unit if it has the capacity, which it did, but that does not appear to be happening based on this example. Any thoughts? Thanks.

P.S. - It sure would be helpful if one of these patches came with an update to the manual reflecting the changes/clarifications of the last few months.


elmo3,
I haven't gotten to playing with 1.40 yet and loading troops with the new routine that loads troops but no supplies. I would assume, like you, that a 1,000 capacity transport should load a unit with a load cost of 978. But it looks like the routine only loaded 90% of the ship's capacity with troops. Did it load any supply at all? The other thing might be that each unit carries supplies with it as an integral part of the unit and it could be that this carried supply is causing a problem as it must be loaded as well and it might cost some capacity. Did you look to see how much supply the unit was carrying?

If carried supply is being factored into the cargo load, and it isn't reflected in the shown load cost then this should be fixed so that carried supply shows as part of the load cost. It can fluctuate so a unit's load cost wouldn't be static, it would fluctuate with the amount of supply carried. If the amount of carried supply isn't factored into the loading until the unit is loaded then the true unit load cost will always be understated causing players headaches with loading troops. I still say err on the side of being conservative; leave yourself more fudge factor when trying to load units onto transports even with no supply. I sure hope someone from the UV team sees this so they can comment on this.
Eric Larsen
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Loading ops

Post by EricLarsen »

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gabby
Transports will only use 900 op points during one turn to load troops. If there are more troops than 900 points can load the remainder will be loaded on following turns.

Gabby,
I take it that the 900 points per turn is at a level 9 port, and that smaller ports will yield less loading ops. It sounds like elmo3 may have interrupted the loading process prematurely by refueling and not waiting an additional turn to see if the rest of the unit loaded. I know that switching to loading supplies or fuel will kill the troop loading process but refueling shouldn't affect anything but available ops points.
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elmo3
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Post by elmo3 »

Eric

No supply was loaded as part of the partial troop load I posted above. That is as it should be since I ordered a "troop only" load.

If Gabby is correct, that only 900 ops points can be used for troop loading, it doesn't say that anywhere in the manual that I could find. If true then why were ops still availabvle for refueling? Also if true, why did the program break up the unit and not show the other component as already being loaded? The second part of the unit was available for load on another transport which seems counterintuitive to me. If it was still on shore due to a lack of ops but already ordered to be loaded on the first AP, which did still have room, then it should show as being loaded. I agree this is confusing at best.

elmo3
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John Lansford
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Post by John Lansford »

Is there any way to tell which units at a base are loading into a TF? There are times when I have multiple TF's that I want to load units into, and having a "loading" note next to the ones already assigned to a TF would be helpful and avoid having them load into two separate TF's.
AP514
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Re: Troop loads

Post by AP514 »

Hey
This is a problem I also have seen..........So which is correct??
Can a unit be loaded just into 1 Convoy with no supplies ??



AP514
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Capt Cliff
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Post by Capt Cliff »

This thread has the wrong title! There is a transport loading problem. Something in the executable is not doing the job.
Capt. Cliff
EricLarsen
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Loading troops

Post by EricLarsen »

[QUOTE]Originally posted by elmo3
Eric

No supply was loaded as part of the partial troop load I posted above. That is as it should be since I ordered a "troop only" load.

If Gabby is correct, that only 900 ops points can be used for troop loading, it doesn't say that anywhere in the manual that I could find. If true then why were ops still availabvle for refueling? Also if true, why did the program break up the unit and not show the other component as already being loaded? The second part of the unit was available for load on another transport which seems counterintuitive to me. If it was still on shore due to a lack of ops but already ordered to be loaded on the first AP, which did still have room, then it should show as being loaded. I agree this is confusing at best.

elmo3


elmo3,
I keep wondering if you somehow cut short the loading process. If you somehow stopped the loading process on the second turn, before it finished actually loading the whole unit, then that would have caused the problem. The program limits the ops points for loading troops a bit as it was more time consuming to load them rather than load supplies. That's why a ship will load more points of straight supply than troops and supplies. While it would be nice to show units that are still in the loading process, or remove them from the units available to be loaded list, I still think we should be keeping track of such details ourselves. Sometimes I make up little lists if I need to remember what units are loading in what tf's if I have too many to track or may take a week off from playing. I still haven't had any problems with loading troops and supplies and I haven't tried 1.40 yet.

As for supplies, don't forget that units carry supply as an integral part of themselves. Look at a unit's detail screen and you'll see supply required and supply carried amounts. I'm guessing that this carried supply is also being loaded with the unit and it could be that this is what is tipping the scales of your load. I would bet that the troops only loading feature is still loading this carried supply and that it is not factored into the unit load cost as unit load costs remain static while that carried supply amount varies from turn to turn. I guess we need to get clarification from the UV team on this carried supply as to whether it is being factored into the load cost only as a unit loads and is not being shown before the loading process starts. If that is the case then it is a bug that should be fixed so that a unit's load cost includes the amount of carried supply.
Eric Larsen
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Correct Title

Post by EricLarsen »

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt Cliff
This thread has the wrong title! There is a transport loading problem. Something in the executable is not doing the job.

Capt Cliff,
You have a transport loading problem, I do not. Therefore from my perspective my title is quite correct.
Eric Larsen
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My experiences

Post by BPRE »

Hi,

These are my experiences of troop loading:
  1. Only 900 operation points are used for loading troops on a given 12 hour turn.
  2. In case you selected Load only troops (v 1.40) it works fine and no supply is loaded.
  3. There is no fixed amount of space above the load cost needed for loading a unit. I've loaded 1400 units into 1500 Transports but if I use 3 3000 transports for a brigade of 4431 in load cost it will only use 2 transports.
  4. I don't think the unit brings along it's own supply. Or rather, if you order Load only troops, it will only cost the load cost and this seems to fit in quite well with the amount of squads and equipment and is always the same regardless of the amount of supplies the unit has.
  5. If a unit has been ordered to load into one transport you can immediately afterwards order the rest of the unit to load into another transport (I've done it at least once but it was before v 1.40 so it might be different now).
    [/list=1]
    Hey
    This is a problem I also have seen..........So which is correct??
    Can a unit be loaded just into 1 Convoy with no supplies ??


    Yes, if you play v 1.40 or later there is a button marked 'Load Only Troops'.

    IMO there is no real fault in this area but it takes some time to fully understand how the game behaves. It could definitely be improved or be explained in a better way in the manual but once you get to know how it's done it's usually not a problem (Load Only Troops improved the situation a lot).

    Regards
    BPRE
EricLarsen
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No program problem for sure!!!!

Post by EricLarsen »

[QUOTE]Originally posted by elmo3
Something looks broken to me. I'm using 1.40 and just saw the following: An AP with a capacity of 1000 was given the task of loading a ground unit of size 978 using the "Load Troops Only" choice. Instead of loading the whole unit it broke the unit into components and only loaded part of it using 900 ops. At first I thought it didn't have enopugh ops to do more so I hit the refuel button. It then refueled using another 45 ops, so ops was not the issue. It should have loaded the whole unit but I had to use another AP to load the rest of the unit. According to the manual a transport should load the whole unit if it has the capacity, which it did, but that does not appear to be happening based on this example. Any thoughts? Thanks.

elmo3,
I just got done playing a whole weekend with version 1.40. I had no problems whatsoever, even when I had one 1240 load-cost unit load on one 1500 capacity transport with supplies! I had 2 1500 capacity transports and had expected the unit to be split amongst the two transports, but it loaded just fine on one transport over the space of two turns and did not leave any stragglers. I suspect that you're looking at the screen just after loading, na dwhile the program reserves 900 ops points at that point it does not do 900 ops points of loading! It will only load a small portion of the troops right after you click to load troops, and the manual states this clearly. Even if the loading process isn't finished after the first turn you just have to leave the transport tf alone and not screw around changing things. I bet this is what is happening and you're doing something that stops the troop loading process prematurely and that's why you're leaving remnants. Clicking to refuel during loading isn't a good thing to do either, refuel before starting the loading process or do what I do and refuel before disbanding tf's.

I think the reason that the program reserves 900 ops points is that troop loading is slower than supply loading and the program uses 900 ops points for loading troops while using 1000 ops points to load supplies. I tried the troop loading with and without supplies and never had one problem leaving stragglers. I also think you shouldn't try to cram a 972 load-cost unit onto a 1,000 capacity transport, that's just not much leeway for error there but I'll bet it would work if you left it alone. The most important part of troop loading is that once you've clicked it to load troops leave the tf alone until it is finished and you won't have problems.!!!! :cool:
Eric Larsen
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