OT - rules questions

[composer99]

New thread for rules questions pertaining to RAW/RAC, WIF:FE, and the FAQ.

[composer99]

Response to this post from the China AI thread:

You get NO links, sources, or references for any of this.



composer99: My source of information is the WiFFE-RAW-7.0 or when seriously interested in a rule AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUP WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary.

For me to go to a group outside these forums would be counter productive. It may or may not be how the game is being written.

As this is a forum (a public meeting place for open discussion) this is where we can discuss how to play the game.

Almost everyone who has been exposed to this game knows there is a steep learning curve involved.

What is a person new to WiF's only source of information? The WiFFE-RAW-7.0.

I posted that I was not contesting ANY of the comments or clarifications but I stated why I made my original post the way I did.



You have taken my post and attacked it even when I said I did not contest the interpretation of it.

And it turns out that the attack was even more meaningless by the rule clarification at AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUP WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary

Were you that bored?


Or are you saying that you must have a background in the game or be a member of a WiF information group (chosen by you) in order to post a comment in these forums?



Why have I always had to post my links, sources, and references when the rest of you do not even bother?

To respond civilly to your post I have waited a full day before drafting this.

Extraneous: I am not, in fact, attacking you. I realize that you were asking a question. I want(ed) to know on what basis you had reached the interpretation that the first paragraph of rule §5 suggested a major power could lend to only one other major power per turn: just from RAW, or from RAW plus discussions elsewhere about the rules. I wanted to know what you thought.

As I noted: "the colloquial style of RAW rears its ugly head again". That RAW has ambiguous phrasing is not your fault, nor the fault of anyone except the people (person?) who wrote it. I am reading the rules and the most recent FAQ (v1.3 from July 2009) as of this writing. The rule still says:

In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn.

and the FAQ has nothing to say on it in its clarifications for §5, either.

The word "another" is, in context, ambiguous. It doesn't quite say "one other major power", nor does it say "other major powers", either of which would be quite clear.

The interpretation you were asking about is possible based on the rule, although it is foreign to my own playing experience. Certainly I agree with pauldernyck that the correct interpretation is that any and all other eligible major powers may be lent to. But reading just "another major power", I wouldn't completely rule out that what ADG really meant was "one other major power".

It was not my intent to imply that browsing any other fora in which World in Flames is discussed is a prerequisite to asking questions about the game or the rules or that you have to frequent Consimworld to "be a WiFFer" (*).

So, let me re-word my question:

Based on reading the RAW, the ADG clarification document, and any other resources, on or offline, that you may frequent (including these forums at Matrix Games), do you think "are you only allowed to give resources and lend lease BP to ONE major power a turn?" is the correct way to play §5? Whether or not you think it is correct, do you think it is reasonable? (**)

IMO what you think the rules say is just as important as the actual text of the rules, and, when you have a rules question, more interesting.

(*) (I would not recommend frequenting Consimworld, by the way: the fora there use an IMO poor design/layout.)

(**) (I realize in your response you noted that you had found a clarification in the FAQ, which puts you ahead of me.)

[composer99]

There weren't any generic threads for questions about the game rules. So here's one.

Any questions that the people here who know the game can't answer we can always forward off to the wifdiscussion list to be shunted off to the decision-making people (ADG).

Incidentally, two things to keep in mind:
(1) The rules may have already been 'fixed' for coding into MWiF, which may render moot some questions.
(2) There's an updated version of RAW (RAW 8) coming sometime soon. I don't belong to any semi-official rules/testing groups so I couldn't guess when, although I do know they were playtested at the US WiFCon in August. Not sure how much RAW 8 will affect MWiF.

[gw15]

Question -
Poland's air force rebases to Hungary. Playing optional rules Pilots and Interment. Do the pilots get added immediately to the CW's pilot track to be used the following turn or do they wait until Germant and Russia are at war?
Rules clarification back in 2007 had a question on this but the question was about if they stayed in Poland. Harry responded the pilots must wait until Germany and Russia were at war. But what if they rebase to Hungary?
I say they are Polish and must wait until Russia and Germany are at war. My very smart opponent says no, only if they stayed in Eastern Poland and were interened by the Russians would they have to wait.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: bommerrang

Question -
Poland's air force rebases to Hungary. Playing optional rules Pilots and Interment. Do the pilots get added immediately to the CW's pilot track to be used the following turn or do they wait until Germant and Russia are at war?
Rules clarification back in 2007 had a question on this but the question was about if they stayed in Poland. Harry responded the pilots must wait until Germany and Russia were at war. But what if they rebase to Hungary?
I say they are Polish and must wait until Russia and Germany are at war. My very smart opponent says no, only if they stayed in Eastern Poland and were interened by the Russians would they have to wait.

Your mixing Option 58 with 19.5.1 Eastern Poland.

If the Polish aircraft rebase to a neutral Hungary the pilots are put on the CW pilot track.

Option 58: (Internment) A minor country aircraft unit can rebase into a neutral minor country. An aircraft unit that does that is destroyed. (PiF option 28: but the pilot survives).

If an aircraft is destroyed but the pilot survives, increase your total on the available pilots track by 1.

19.5.1 Eastern Poland
The USSR can exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights to occupy eastern Poland during any Allied land movement step. However, it can only exercise those rights if Poland has not been conquered.

You exercise those rights by moving a land unit into any hex of eastern Poland.

Once you exercise those rights, the part of Poland to the east of the partition line becomes conquered by the Soviets. Move any Axis units there to the nearest Axis controlled hex they can stack in. Any Allied (except Soviet) units there are destroyed. They are removed from the game (internment) until Germany and the USSR are at war, at which point they may be added to the Commonwealth force pool if the Commonwealth player so desires.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: composer99

There weren't any generic threads for questions about the game rules. So here's one.

Any questions that the people here who know the game can't answer we can always forward off to the wifdiscussion list to be shunted off to the decision-making people (ADG).

Incidentally, two things to keep in mind:
(1) The rules may have already been 'fixed' for coding into MWiF, which may render moot some questions.
(2) There's an updated version of RAW (RAW 8) coming sometime soon. I don't belong to any semi-official rules/testing groups so I couldn't guess when, although I do know they were playtested at the US WiFCon in August. Not sure how much RAW 8 will affect MWiF.

[:D] Nope. Not a single generic thread for questions about the game rules. [:D]

Dumb rules question

A few questions about the rules

Rules question

Rules Clarification List

[gw15]

I'm only asking clarification on Harry's answer where he stated that the Polish pilots do NOT go on the CW pilot track if they get interned in Eastern Poland.
Harry IS linking option 58 with 19.5.1.
I do not view this issue as a geographic issue but a Polish specific one.

Here is his answer:
Q19.5-1 19.5.1
14.6.4 Option 58
When USSR takes Eastern Poland, what happens to Polish air units eventually in Eastern Poland? Are pilots immediately available to the CW or only available when USSR / Germany at war (like Polish land units)?

The latter. Date 29/12/2007 19.5.1: Any Allied (except Soviet) units there are
destroyed. They are removed from the game
(internment) until Germany and the USSR are at war,
at which point they may be added to the Commonwealt
force pool if the CW player so desires.
14.6.4 Option 58: A minor country aircraft unit can
rebase into a neutral minor country. An aircraft unit that
does that is destroyed. (PiF option 28: but the pilot
survives).

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: bommerrang

I'm only asking clarification on Harry's answer where he stated that the Polish pilots do NOT go on the CW pilot track if they get interned in Eastern Poland.
Harry IS linking option 58 with 19.5.1.
I do not view this issue as a geographic issue but a Polish specific one.

Here is his answer:
Q19.5-1 19.5.1
14.6.4 Option 58
When USSR takes Eastern Poland, what happens to Polish air units eventually in Eastern Poland? Are pilots immediately available to the CW or only available when USSR / Germany at war (like Polish land units)?

The latter. Date 29/12/2007 19.5.1: Any Allied (except Soviet) units there are
destroyed. They are removed from the game
(internment) until Germany and the USSR are at war,
at which point they may be added to the Commonwealt
force pool if the CW player so desires.
14.6.4 Option 58: A minor country aircraft unit can
rebase into a neutral minor country. An aircraft unit that
does that is destroyed. (PiF option 28: but the pilot
survives).

If the Polish aircraft are in Eastern Poland when the USSR claims Eastern Poland they do not get to rebase.

They are removed from the game (internment) until Germany and the USSR are at war, at which point they may be added to the Commonwealth force pool if the Commonwealth player so desires

Note: "19.5.1 14.6.4 Option 58" are under "Rule References" and "RAW7aug04 Rule Quote (411)" on the FAQ.

[Easo79]

ORIGINAL: composer99

In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn.

and the FAQ has nothing to say on it in its clarifications for §5, either.

The word "another" is, in context, ambiguous. It doesn't quite say "one other major power", nor does it say "other major powers", either of which would be quite clear.

The interpretation you were asking about is possible based on the rule, although it is foreign to my own playing experience. Certainly I agree with pauldernyck that the correct interpretation is that any and all other eligible major powers may be lent to. But reading just "another major power", I wouldn't completely rule out that what ADG really meant was "one other major power".

I know that this has already been discussed, but as I am now learning the rules it is still very interesting to me.

For me (I never have played the game AND English is not my native language)

5. "In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn"

has all three following meanings



5a) In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources to another major power on the same side this turn.
5b) In this stage, you can announce that you are lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn.
5c) In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn.

13.6.4 says

You can lend lease any number of build points to or from each major power each turn

13.6.4 does not address resources specifically, but nothing in section 5 suggests that they are treated differently from building points regarding donations (except that resources are "given" and build points are "lend-leased").

In addition, there are scattered examples in the rules that indicate than resources can be given to different countries in the same turn. E.g: USA entry 15. "The US can give up to 5 resources per turn each to the Commonwealth and France in future turns".

Therefore, it seems to me that what the rules say is what common sense dictates in this regard.

[paulderynck]

Hooray for common sense!

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Easo79


I know that this has already been discussed, but as I am now learning the rules it is still very interesting to me.

For me (I never have played the game AND English is not my native language)

5. "In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn"

has all three following meanings



5a) In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources to another major power on the same side this turn.
5b) In this stage, you can announce that you are lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn.
5c) In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn.

13.6.4 says

You can lend lease any number of build points to or from each major power each turn

13.6.4 does not address resources specifically, but nothing in section 5 suggests that they are treated differently from building points regarding donations (except that resources are "given" and build points are "lend-leased").

In addition, there are scattered examples in the rules that indicate than resources can be given to different countries in the same turn. E.g: USA entry 15. "The US can give up to 5 resources per turn each to the Commonwealth and France in future turns".

Therefore, it seems to me that what the rules say is what common sense dictates in this regard.

A. REINFORCEMENT STAGE
B. LENDING RESOURCES STAGE
5. Lending Stage
13.6.4 Lend lease
In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.
Lend lease was a device FDR invented to circumvent US neutrality laws concerning non-involvement in the war. US military goods were “leased” to the other Allies on a deferred payment or return basis (preferably without too many holes in them).

To lend lease, you must announce how many build points you are giving during the lending stage (see 5.). You can lend lease any number of build points to or from each major power each turn (exceptions: China and USA ~ see 13.3.2 US entry options and the USSR ~ see 5.Lending Stage). You can lend lease build points and receive them in the same turn (but not to the same major power).

Transport
During the production step, you transport the promised build points to any city or major port in the recipient’s home country (Britain’s in the
case of the Commonwealth). You do this in exactly the same way as you transport resources (see 13.6.1), except that you can also transport
an additional 2 build points to the capital and 1 to each other city and major port cumulative, each turn (e.g. you could transport 6 build points
to London each turn; 2 for being the capital, 3 for the factories and

C. INITIATIVE STAGE
D. ACTION STAGE
D2 First side’s impulse
Every major power on the first side performs these steps:
D2.1 Declare war
D2.2 Choose action
Choose either a pass, a naval, an air, a land or a combined action.
D2.3 Perform actions

E. END OF TURN STAGE
E1 Partisans
E2 US entry
E3 Return to base
E4 Final reorganisation
E5 Production
E6 Intelligence (option 63)
E7 Peace

The LENDING RESOURCES STAGE comes at the start of each turn while the turn has many ACTION STAGEs within it followed by the END OF TURN STAGE.

On the first turn many trade agreements are in already started.

While in the Action Stages Chinese cities can be taken, wars can be declared, and other things happen that will add or remove USA entry chits from the USA entry pools.

The USA entry chits in the USA entry pools (German and Italy, and Japan) allow the USA to do certain USA entry options like Resources to western Allies.

15. Resources to western Allies (Ge/It) (There is a 60% chance that a USA (Ge/It) entry pool chit will be moved to the USA (Ge/It) tension pool)
The US can give up to 5 resources per turn each to the Commonwealth and France in future turns (unlimited while the USA is at war with Germany). USA convoy points can’t be used to transport these resources while the USA is a neutral major power.

Which can let you give up to 5 resources per turn in the following 5. Lending Stage.

But you will do Production before the next 5. Lending Stage where you can give up to 5 resources to the Commonwealth and France.

You cannot give resources to a major power in the same turn as it is giving resources to you. However, you can give resources to a major power in the same turn as another major power gives resources to you. The same restrictions apply to lend leasing build points.

You may however give build points to a major power in the same turn you receive resources from that major power or vice versa.

The difference between Build points and Resources is:
You can give build points to a major power in the same turn you receive resources from that major power.
Or (vice versa means) you can give resources to a major power in the same turn you receive build points from that major power.

You cannot "give and receive build points at the same time" or "give and receive resources at the same time" with the same major power.

[Extraneous]

SiF option 9: Up to 4 naval units can stack together in a minor port. Every 2 convoy points (or any spare point) is a naval unit.

19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.

CoiF option 76: The CoiF column in the above table is the number of tankers these minor countries start with. Reduce that number of SiF convoy points set up. (e.g. Finland sets up with 1 tanker and 2 convoy points).

24.1.6 Setting up
Where to set up
A neutral major power can only set up in hexes it controls.

You must set up all on-map naval units in ports.

All units must conform to stacking limits after set up (see 2.3 Stacking).

After you have finished setting-up, you can make naval moves out to sea with your naval units. Treat this as a naval action you conducted last turn, so the units must finish their move, then drop to a lower sea-box section as if they had stayed at sea last turn (see 13.4 Return to base). Neutral major powers can only make these moves with convoy (CoiF option 76: and tanker) points.

In 24.1.6 Setting up How do you handle the pre-war naval move for minor powers?

Do you use the aligning major powers activity limits?

How do you judge the amount of the minor powerd naval units can move to sea?

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

SiF option 9: Up to 4 naval units can stack together in a minor port. Every 2 convoy points (or any spare point) is a naval unit.

19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.

CoiF option 76: The CoiF column in the above table is the number of tankers these minor countries start with. Reduce that number of SiF convoy points set up. (e.g. Finland sets up with 1 tanker and 2 convoy points).

24.1.6 Setting up
Where to set up
A neutral major power can only set up in hexes it controls.

You must set up all on-map naval units in ports.

All units must conform to stacking limits after set up (see 2.3 Stacking).

After you have finished setting-up, you can make naval moves out to sea with your naval units. Treat this as a naval action you conducted last turn, so the units must finish their move, then drop to a lower sea-box section as if they had stayed at sea last turn (see 13.4 Return to base). Neutral major powers can only make these moves with convoy (CoiF option 76: and tanker) points.

In 24.1.6 Setting up How do you handle the pre-war naval move for minor powers?

Do you use the aligning major powers activity limits?

How do you judge the amount of the minor powerd naval units can move to sea?

as it is written. this is for major powers.

setting up minors are handled with some other rules

[Extraneous]

Thank you for the clarification.

Minor power naval units can't do anything but set up in port at the start of any scenario:
24.2.1 Barbarossa ~ “One Kick...”: May/Jun 1941~Jan/Feb 1942
24.2.2 Guadalcanal ~ The tide turns: May/Jun 1942 ~ Jan/Feb 1943
24.3.1 Fascist Tide ~ The war in Europe: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ May/Jun 1945
24.3.2 Day of Infamy ~ The War in the Pacific: Nov/Dec 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.1 Missed the Bus ~ The end of the beginning: Jul/Aug 1940 - Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.2 Lebensraum ~ Germany moves east: May/Jun 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.3 Waking giant ~ The USA enters the war: Nov/Dec 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.4 Brute force ~ The Allies hit back: May/Jun 1942~Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.5 Darkness before the dawn ~ The beginning of the end: Jul/Aug 1943 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.6 Decline and fall ~ The Allied ascendancy: May/Jun 1944 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.7 The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Thank you for the clarification.

Minor power naval units can't do anything but set up in port at the start of any scenario:
24.2.1 Barbarossa ~ “One Kick...”: May/Jun 1941~Jan/Feb 1942
24.2.2 Guadalcanal ~ The tide turns: May/Jun 1942 ~ Jan/Feb 1943
24.3.1 Fascist Tide ~ The war in Europe: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ May/Jun 1945
24.3.2 Day of Infamy ~ The War in the Pacific: Nov/Dec 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.1 Missed the Bus ~ The end of the beginning: Jul/Aug 1940 - Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.2 Lebensraum ~ Germany moves east: May/Jun 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.3 Waking giant ~ The USA enters the war: Nov/Dec 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.4 Brute force ~ The Allies hit back: May/Jun 1942~Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.5 Darkness before the dawn ~ The beginning of the end: Jul/Aug 1943 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.6 Decline and fall ~ The Allied ascendancy: May/Jun 1944 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
24.4.7 The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945

This needs an additional clarification.

1) Neutral Minor Countries are not set up at the start of any scenario or campaign.

2) Active Minor Countries are set up as part of the Major Power that controls it. These units are listed in the set up list for each campaign. Therefore their ships can make a 'pre-game' naval move if the controlling MP can make on. These moves do not count towards action limits. Example: In the Barbarossa campaign Germany sets up the Romanian CL in a Rumanian port. Then Germany may move the Romanian CL to the Black Sea.

3) When a neutral Minor country becomes active then their naval units must be placed in a port.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

I've got a question; not something that's come up in a game (yet) but bugging me.

Territorials + Vichy.

Territorials in general are governed by 22.4.5, which, in part says

Territorials are controlled by the major power that controls their home country or territory when they arrive as reinforcements, even if they were built by a different major power. You return on map territorials to the force pools when their home country or territory is conquered.

(In addition, I could have sworn there was something in the rules that said that they moved to the force pool of the conquering country, but I can't seem to find it at the moment)



Now, if France has Terr on the map when Vichy is implemented, I'm not 100% sure what happens. Vichy installation isn't technically conquest, but seems to count as such in a lot of ways. So what happens to my:

1) Terr from Vichy France controlled minors in Metropolitan France?

2) Terr from Free France controlled minors in Metropolitan France?

3) Terr in their home countries?

4) Terr from a Vichy France minor in a Free France minor?

5) Terr from a Free France minor in a Vichy France minor?

[Centuur]

The creation of Vichy France takes place before all other things happens during the peace phase.

What happens to TERR units is the same as with other units during the creation of Vichy, according to RAW 17.3:

"Now, place in the force pools all French controlled ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’
units and half their other land and aircraft units (taken together) from
Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled
by Vichy France. The player running Vichy France can choose which
to remove."

Any on map TERR in Vichy controlled territory is part of this rule, since they are French controlled. So if there are land and/or aircraft units in f.e. French West africa, half of them are put back into the forcepools. It doesn't matter if the TERR is in it's home country of if it is Vichy controlled or not. Also in RAW:

"All units controlled by France that are still in Vichy territory are now
controlled by Vichy".

So theoretically, TERR from Free French controlled minors can become Vichy controlled according to RAW if they remain in Vichy controlled territory during Vichy creation.

However, after the creation of Vichy France, the game proceeds with the conquest phase. At this point RAW says about TERR:

"You return on map territorials to the force pools when their home country or territory is conquered."

At that point, all Vichy controlled TERR which have there home country in Free French territory are removed into the Free French force pools. Of course, the same goes the other way around...

So, the answer to your questions:

1. They stay on the map, if they are not take as losses during the creation of Vichy.

2. If they are not taken as losses during the creation of Vichy, they are returned to the (Free) French Force Pool during the conquest phase.

3. They stay on the map if they are not taken as losses during the creation of Vichy when in Vichy controlled territory. If they are in Free French territory, they stay on the map no matter what.

4. They are removed and put in the Vichy France Force pool during the conquest Phase.

5. If they are not taken as losses during the creation of Vichy, they are returned to the Free French Force pool during the conquest Phase.

Also, remember that TERR aren't subject to removal from the force pools during Vichy creation. All TERR remain in the force pools.

[paulderynck]

Vichy is not conquered so any Territorials that go Vichy and that are not lost due to creation of Vichy remain on the map under Vichy control. It is possible that they may be located in Vichy France at this time, but why bother keeping them when they are the only land units Vichy can build?

Any Territorials that are off the map and belong to a Vichy controlled minor may be built by Vichy.

Whether Vichy or FF or other, minor country Territorials are not removed from the map unless their minor is conquered. If France is Vichied or incompletely conquered then all her minors are not conquered.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

This was a delight to code.[;)]

[Extraneous]

SiF option 9: Up to 4 naval units can stack together in a minor port. Every 2 convoy points (or any spare point) is a naval unit.

19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.

Denmark has 5 naval units (at least 3 naval units must be set up in Denmark)
Heavy cruiser Peder Skram (1,7,1,0,3-1)
Heavy cruiser Niels Iuel (1,7,0,0,3-2)
4CP (2 Tankers CoiF) (counts as 3 naval units)


Can you set up the 2 heavy cruisers and 1CP (or tanker) in Denmark to achieve the minor country set up requirements?

This would leave 5CP (or tankers) for set up outside of Denmark.


Or would you have to have the 2 heavy cruisers and 2CP (or tankers) in Denmark?

This would leave 4CP (or tankers) for set up outside of Denmark.