1950s US/Soviet Mod Data

[Werezak]

ORIGINAL: dholedays

So as for back story, I've been thinking of a situation where the Hungarian revolution is much less of a violent uprising, in that most of the Hungarian government and military end up concurring with the sentiment of the demonstrators and oust Mátyás Rákosi and the ÁVH in a mostly bloodless way, and the new government is recognized by the west. Hungary then decides to withdraw from the WP and declare itself neutral. The Soviet Union, already having conceded troop reduction agreements to Poland as a result of "Polish October," becomes paranoid that it's control over the eastern bloc is slipping away and invades Hungary. Since Hungary has officially declared it's neutrality as a sovereign nation, NATO intervenes, and an international crisis ensues.

So my intention for the mod is to have NATO vs. the Soviet Union, with Hungary allied with NATO. I still haven't firmly decided on a name. I like BG's "Showdown on the Danube," though I was also thinking "Conflict on the Danube" had a nicer acronym, though it doesn't sound nearly as snazzy lol.

Currently completed:

US Infantry and Russian Strelkovy (Strelkovaya?) Divisions (~1954-56)
74 Forces
57 Vehicles
67 Weapons

1 Scenario - "Onhaye" : US and Soviet infantry divisions fight over a major river crossing.

Download link: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28570084/estab.zip

====================

Hi all, I've been thinking about making a fictional mod about Soviet and US forces in the 1950s maybe 60s for a while now, and I've just decided to pick up BftB again to try and make it.

I've been putting it off for a long time since creating such a mod seems like a daunting task, but its been on my mind for long enough that I am going to give it a shot. I was hoping that I could get some advice here on these forums.

The problem I'm having is figuring out where to get all the accuracy and penetration numbers. While penetration looks pretty well defined, "accuracy" seems kind of ambiguous. I'm guessing the accuracy numbers are hit percentages versus some standard sized target? If so does anyone know what the name of the standard is, so I could search for it and maybe find some data.

I also predict though that I will probably have to do some estimation of the accuracy and penetration of various weapons, but I'm not really sure how the accuracy and penetration of various weapons should scale with range. Is there a particular function you would recommend? (linear, quadratic, etc). I'm also not sure about where to find many other parameters such as burst radius.

I'm not really looking to make a particularly historically accurate mod, since 1) It's my first modding attempt, 2) It's a sort of fantasy scenario 3) I'm working with a game engine designed for late WWII west front anyways. As long as things perform in the game as you'd reasonably expect them to perform I'd be happy.

Lastly does anyone know any good books regarding equipment, orbats, and doctrine from this era? I'd be willing to put in a mild effort to acquire them.

Sorry for the long post.
TL;DR What is accuracy, also what is the best way to guess various parameters if I can't find data.

[Edit: another point]

[Werezak]

Update: I've found an absolute treasure trove of Soviet orbats over at Armoured Acorn, covering 1954 to 1964, just the period I was interested in! I still need to find similar info for US forces, as well as a whole bunch of other things, but I'm definately getting excited.

[PS: Apparently I'm not allowed to post links, but for anyone whose interested, those orbats can be found at www dot armouredacorn.com/Orbats/Soviet/Default dot htm. It's worth checking out, there's tons of cool icons and stuff]

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: dholedays

Hi all, I've been thinking about making a fictional mod about Soviet and US forces in the 1950s maybe 60s for a while now, and I've just decided to pick up BftB again to try and make it.

I've been putting it off for a long time since creating such a mod seems like a daunting task, but its been on my mind for long enough that I am going to give it a shot. I was hoping that I could get some advice here on these forums.

The problem I'm having is figuring out where to get all the accuracy and penetration numbers. While penetration looks pretty well defined, "accuracy" seems kind of ambiguous. I'm guessing the accuracy numbers are hit percentages versus some standard sized target? If so does anyone know what the name of the standard is, so I could search for it and maybe find some data.

I also predict though that I will probably have to do some estimation of the accuracy and penetration of various weapons, but I'm not really sure how the accuracy and penetration of various weapons should scale with range. Is there a particular function you would recommend? (linear, quadratic, etc). I'm also not sure about where to find many other parameters such as burst radius.

This is an extremely interesting project dholedays. Command Ops on the 1950-51 Korean War campaign (or a fictional NATO vs. Warsaw Pact in 1956) is quite interesting and doable, I think.

As a principle I'd suggest that you look into existing estabs for pieces of equipment more similar to the ones you want to model. From there, you can extrapolate parameters. Probably your initial modeling will be a bit off, but that will get you started and things will start to roll down the hill for you easily.

Regarding how to best approach the problem of determining the accuracy and penetration values: I'd recommend you to PM simovitch - who was the coordinator of the data project for BFTB - and T-28A - one of the coordinators for the upcoming East Front games data project. They have already gone through that, and probably will be delighted to share some insights with you.

[Arjuna]

Good advice BG.

I'd also recommend Dupey "Numbers Predictions and War". Macdonald and Janes were the publishers.

[wodin]

Sounds superb...would love a CO Korea War..or a fictional CO Cold War gone hot..

[BletchleyGeek]

Another suggestion: try to focus on a particular operation for starters. That should help you narrow down the ORBATS you should try to identify and work on. You don't need to start by modeling the whole of the US or Soviet Union military organization: just a few significant units, and then work from that. I think it's quite safe to assume that the NKPA was following Red Army organization in general lines, yet in this I might be wrong.

The whole 1:50,000 map collection is available here

http://www.koreanwar.org/html/korean_war_topo_maps.html

and here's the link to the map key

http://www.koreanwar2.org/kwp2/maps/ref ... ey_map.pdf

Regarding reading on the campaign, here's there's a smattering of essays and AAR's

http://www.westpoint.edu/history/SitePa ... 20War.aspx

and probably there are tons of documentation on the CSGC site.

Map making is tough - yet I find it to be weirdly absorbing. Last night I resumed some mapping work I had left tracing contour lines, and when I checked the clock, I saw it was 1AM [X(]

With a topic like this I'd surprised if you couldn't find anyone able and willing to help and make some maps.

[jimcarravall]

Here's a note in Armchair General regarding source information for orders of battle arranged by era:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... hp?t=37721

Here's a PDF of a Marine Corps Tables of Organization and Equipment:

http://www.recordsofwar.com/korea/USMC/Box%2019-16.pdf

Here's something about the US Weapons during the war:

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/smallarms/ ... eapons.htm

And, here's something from Wikipedia on Korean War weapons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Korean_War_weapons

[Werezak]

Hey guys, thanks for the pointers! I'll be sure to ask simovitch if he can give me any tips, and "Numbers Predictions and War" sounds like it could be insightful.

Choosing a particular operation and focusing on it sounds wise. I don't know what I would choose at the moment, but I might want to settle on something eventually since as BG said, entire military organizations might be too much to chew on for the first go.

I've given some thought about Korea, but right now I'm not so sure. I certainly don't mind taking a look at it though at least as a starting point, and it will probably be helpful as a source of information on US forces. At the moment though I find myself more interested in modeling Soviet forces than North Korean or Chinese ones, and I want to include some postwar WP equipment like the AK-47 and the T-54/55. From what I understand the NK and the CCF were entirely equipped with leftovers from WWII.

Though for europe, I'm not sure what kind of operation I would do yet. It would have to be fictional, of course. The Berlin Blockade looks like a promising flashpoint, although its a few years earlier than the timeframe I was thinking of.

Right now I'm still mostly focused on trying to get data for basic things like equipment and organization.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: dholedays
I've given some thought about Korea, but right now I'm not so sure. I certainly don't mind taking a look at it though at least as a starting point, and it will probably be helpful as a source of information on US forces. At the moment though I find myself more interested in modeling Soviet forces than North Korean or Chinese ones, and I want to include some postwar WP equipment like the AK-47 and the T-54/55. From what I understand the NK and the CCF were entirely equipped with leftovers from WWII.

Fair enough, dholedays [:)] I think you're on the right track about North Korean and Chinese equipment. Any way you go, it'll be interesting. Keep us posted on how you're progressing with it or if you find trouble with the data tools.

[Arjuna]

Why not a hypothetical set in 1956 during the Hungarian uprising. Eg assume that NATO intervened.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
Why not a hypothetical set in 1956 during the Hungarian uprising. Eg assume that NATO intervened.

That's a very good "Showdown on the Danube" is indeed a catchy name for the project [:)]

[Werezak]

Why not a hypothetical set in 1956 during the Hungarian uprising. Eg assume that NATO intervened.

Hey that sounds like a good idea. Thanks!

[Werezak]

BTW do the vehicle road and cross country speeds matter at all? Or speed in the game wholly determined by the speed parameter of a force?

[Arjuna]

Both have an affect. It's complicated. A force's speed is limited by the max speed of its vehicles. It is also limited by the terrain movement modifiers and these are applied to either the motorised or cc move rates depending on the type of terrain.

[Werezak]

Sorry, I realized previous content of this post would probably be better suited to a PM.

Anyways, so far it's been pretty slow going. I guess part of it is because I'm still getting used to the tools, but there's also a lot of looking up stuff and reading. I think it took me two hours to put in a single vehicle, I spent some time trying to decide on reliability and ronsonabilty numbers, and also trying to figure out how to convert to 30 degrees equivalent slope. I think it should speed up once I come up with systematic ways of assigning these types of things.

The data contained in the default estabs has been a big help so far. I've been basing many of the weapons on existing ones and then changing various parameters. So far:
Stg 44 -> Ak-47
M2HB -> DShKM
M1919 MMG -> SGM
1.5cm Drilling -> ZPU-2
.303 Bren -> RPD
PzShreck -> B-10 RR

I'm not sure how justified some of these are, but it gets the job done I guess.

[Arjuna]

Yes it does.

[Werezak]

I've been adding some US infantry weapons today.

The M1 Rifle and M1 Carbine are back, along with the M2 Carbine (Almost the same as M1 but with fully-automatic fire). The M3 SMG returns as the M3A1, and the Bazooka is getting upgraded to the 3.5in M20 "Super Bazooka."

So far I haven't found any info on the equipment loadouts for infantry companies of either side in the 1950s, but at least a little more data is in.

[Werezak]

[edit: updated link.]

If anyone wants to have a look at the estab so far, here is a link:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28570084/estab.zip

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: dholedays

If anyone wants to have a look at the estab so far, here is a link:

Just took a quick look. It's shaping up quite nicely, I think

[Werezak]

Hi everyone, over the past few days I've managed to put together two regiments' worth of data. I've now got a set of forces for a US Infantry regiment and a Soviet Rifle Regiment. I've also put together a little test scenario putting the two regiments against each other, too. I've updated the download link above, so you can check it out.

So far I haven't found too much information about the organization of US forces. Most of what I've been able to find is that the US forces were pretty similar to those in WWII, but with "more automatic weapons." So for now that is what I am basing them off of. I'm hoping I will find more specific information, such as specific numbers of vehicles and equipment.