Air unit stuck on Island

[baloo7777]

I placed a Tac air unit on a British controlled island (84,39) near The Shetlands Sea Zone to threaten Axis AI incursions into the Northern North Sea Area. The unit is needed elsewhere now. When I tried to rebase it I found it was unsupplied for 3 turns. I could not Strategic move it either. I have 2 CA's in the Shetland Trench Sea Zone and a couple BB's, CA's, and CV's in a fleet stationed for about 6 turns in the Northern north Sea zone. I do not have air superiority in that area, but neither does the Axis AI. I also have a Tac air and a fighter unit protecting the Scapa Flow base. About every other turn the Axis AI sends subs and/or a CA (raider I assume) into the northern North Sea area, then retreats after air attacks from the CV's (I am using precious PP's to keep planes onboard from losses). How do I supply the Tac air unit so I can withdraw it? Why isn't it supplied to begin with?

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

I placed a Tac air unit on a British controlled island (84,39) near The Shetlands Sea Zone to threaten Axis AI incursions into the Northern North Sea Area. The unit is needed elsewhere now. When I tried to rebase it I found it was unsupplied for 3 turns. I could not Strategic move it either. I have 2 CA's in the Shetland Trench Sea Zone and a couple BB's, CA's, and CV's in a fleet stationed for about 6 turns in the Northern north Sea zone. I do not have air superiority in that area, but neither does the Axis AI. I also have a Tac air and a fighter unit protecting the Scapa Flow base. About every other turn the Axis AI sends subs and/or a CA (raider I assume) into the northern North Sea area, then retreats after air attacks from the CV's (I am using precious PP's to keep planes onboard from losses). How do I supply the Tac air unit so I can withdraw it? Why isn't it supplied to begin with?

I think this is the same problem that has come up in the discussion on naval action in the Med.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3305671

See Post 21, I had the same problem with trying to place Italian units on Italian owned islands off the coast of Turkey.

Problem : Supply from ships does not seem to work for units on island hexes that you own (note the distinction between owned and controlled)

The Italian owned 4 hex island has a landing beach, but the Axis does not get the option to disembark on this hex, so the Allies can invade and land on the island beach hex, with a ground unit ashore, they have control and can re-base air units and get sea supply from fleets in the adjacent sea zone. The Axis cannot supply, or defend their own island.

Solution : Wastelands to fix sea supply and amphibious landings to owned hexes, or maybe ........

Thinking last night, so not fully worked it out, but the idea is to represent small island harbours, not ports, just the small harbours that all inhabited islands have. The same effect happens for the Channel Islands and some small islands off the West French Coast. There are landing beaches on these islands (not on Shetland unfortunately), but the owning country can't use them.

However, you can place a Mulberry harbour on the landing beaches in owned hexes, so I have placed an Italian Mulberry harbour on the beach hex of the 4 hex Italian island, renamed it 'Port Hope', I can now re-base an air unit on the island, in supply.

Now the detail, which I haven't fully worked through. The Mulberry harbour icon represents the ground defence unit for the island and the strength of the unit needs to be edited in the 'const' file to make it more realistically a brigade, or division sized unit, maybe reduce the level of supply it provides. The time the mulberry harbour lasts needs to be extended, the cost can be readjusted, or payment off-set in PP adjustments in F12.

These are small harbours, bringing in basic supplies in small coastal ships, no convoys, warships cannot dock here, no ship repair, so however you balance out the PP cost, it is to cover the preparation and maintenance of a small harbour, perhaps on a 6 game month basis, to be renewed after that time.

This idea is mainly for use by the Axis side which will probably not be using Mulberry harbours in the normal sense. I need to test whether this can be altered in the national 'const' files, which leaves the Allied use of Mulberry harbours for major invasions untouched. I think there is a house rule and/or 'const' file adjustments which will bring a small harbour feature into these islands.

None of this helps you in the Shetlands, as there is no landing beach, the only supply you might get there, is air supply. If you can get enough bombers in range on the mainland, to get enough supply on the island to re-base the trapped air unit. I chose to disband my isolated air unit and rebuild a new one, you can compensate for the PP loss through F12, or write it off to experience.

A longer term fix is to edit the scenarios to put landing beach hexes on all the island groups so that the modified mulberry harbour (small island harbour) option can be used. [:)]

[baloo7777]

None of this helps you in the Shetlands, as there is no landing beach, the only supply you might get there, is air supply. If you can get enough bombers in range on the mainland, to get enough supply on the island to re-base the trapped air unit. I chose to disband my isolated air unit and rebuild a new one, you can compensate for the PP loss through F12, or write it off to experience.

A longer term fix is to edit the scenarios to put landing beach hexes on all the island groups so that the modified mulberry harbour (small island harbour) option can be used.

I understand! I will chalk it up to experience! I thought it was a good way to chase enemy subs away during early '41. I want to be able to be flexible and use my interior lines at home in England to rebase my Tac air units where needed. I have few PP's to work with and fewer Tac vs fighter units too. Kinda funny I can recon and attack with the stranded unit (supply this turn of 2), but cannot fly away to rebase?! I could , like you reminded me, use F12 or disband and rebuild, but I think I will leave it there to use it in a more permanent way. I thought your idea of using the mulberry was brilliant!

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

None of this helps you in the Shetlands, as there is no landing beach, the only supply you might get there, is air supply. If you can get enough bombers in range on the mainland, to get enough supply on the island to re-base the trapped air unit. I chose to disband my isolated air unit and rebuild a new one, you can compensate for the PP loss through F12, or write it off to experience.

A longer term fix is to edit the scenarios to put landing beach hexes on all the island groups so that the modified mulberry harbour (small island harbour) option can be used.

I understand! I will chalk it up to experience! I thought it was a good way to chase enemy subs away during early '41. I want to be able to be flexible and use my interior lines at home in England to rebase my Tac air units where needed. I have few PP's to work with and fewer Tac vs fighter units too. Kinda funny I can recon and attack with the stranded unit (supply this turn of 2), but cannot fly away to rebase?! I could , like you reminded me, use F12 or disband and rebuild, but I think I will leave it there to use it in a more permanent way. I thought your idea of using the mulberry was brilliant!

So you are getting some supply, you get 2 for each CA group, if you can move more CA groups into adjacent sea zones you may get enough supply to move the air unit out. I think the best approach now is to edit the scenario to add a landing beach hex, this can then be used to operate the mulberry harbour/small island harbour ploy.


Here is the Italian owned island in the Med, placing the mulberry harbour (click icon in hex info box), with PPs added through F12. Before I get hit with the cheat word, this is only getting supply into an area where supply should be possible, but the game does not recognise.



With normal supply there should be a convoy, which could be intercepted, but no port to be able to set a convoy. This is a way to open up an area where the game doesn't work, it's a personal house rule which has to be used with discretion, simulating small harbours supplied by small ships, not convoys of transports landing heavy equipment such as tanks and artillery, just enough to keep a small number of units operating. Fleets cannot dock to refuel, or repair, strategic use is limited. [:)]

[Rasputitsa]

Deleted, wrong file.

[Rasputitsa]

Here is the harbour installed and in use, the air unit has supply 19, but this can be edited in the 'const' file. The harbour icon has a defence value to represent harbour defence (this replaces the ground unit you cannot land as hex owner), this also can be edited if too strong. The life of the harbour can be reset, also in the 'const' file, I think I will try 6 game months (24 turns).





Before the harbour was installed no Axis unit could be landed on the beach hex and any air unit re-based to the island had no supply and became useless.

I am away from home and will have to wait before trying this out in a running game, also need to check how much can be edited, as I don't want to change the working of the mulberry harbour for the Allies who will use them in their invasion role. I am sure this can be made to work and I like the idea of bringing small harbours into limited operation on otherwise useless islands (remember the enemy can use and supply these islands with normal rules, it's just the owner who can't get to them). There may be a use for small harbours along the NA coast, Norway, etc.. [8D]

[baloo7777]

I like the idea for the Axis, although at the moment I am playing as the Allies vs AI Axis. If I was facing this situation (the Italians with the Mulberry representing the small natuaal harbor), I would seriously consider a (preplanned) CV raid coming through the Suez from the British colonies (ie. going the long, slow way around to use FOW to gain surprise). At least 3 CV's and 5 CA's would have to be withdrawn from the Atlantic in order to do enough damage. Can the Mulberry be Bombarded from sea? Of course, it would need to be a complete surprise, as Britian would be vulnerable (but probably not if US and/or USSR are at war with Axis)! In reality, that one Tac air unit requires a lot more attention than its worth! Sort of a dilemma for the Allies. What I really like about the Island Air Base idea is that it borders 2 or more sea zones, giving the air unit great flexibility to cover/interdict naval operations. I am going to try placing another CA patrol in the Shetlands to give my stranded Tac a little more supply.

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

I like the idea for the Axis, although at the moment I am playing as the Allies vs AI Axis. If I was facing this situation (the Italians with the Mulberry representing the small natuaal harbor), I would seriously consider a (preplanned) CV raid coming through the Suez from the British colonies (ie. going the long, slow way around to use FOW to gain surprise). At least 3 CV's and 5 CA's would have to be withdrawn from the Atlantic in order to do enough damage. Can the Mulberry be Bombarded from sea? Of course, it would need to be a complete surprise, as Britian would be vulnerable (but probably not if US and/or USSR are at war with Axis)! In reality, that one Tac air unit requires a lot more attention than its worth! Sort of a dilemma for the Allies. What I really like about the Island Air Base idea is that it borders 2 or more sea zones, giving the air unit great flexibility to cover/interdict naval operations. I am going to try placing another CA patrol in the Shetlands to give my stranded Tac a little more supply.

I have hardly thought through the tactics of the small harbour idea, regular ports can take damage and the port level gets pushed down, but it rebuilds and the attacker has to keep hitting it to suppress the port. A small harbour is a unit and, as with other units, if destroyed, it's gone.

The amount of supply from a small harbour could be adjusted, it's only going to cover a small area of a few island hexes. There is the possibility of the effect if installed on a mainland hex, long Norwegian or North African coasts, you don't want a big effect, setting the supply level lower will reduce the number of hexes affected.

Any assets you have are open to attack, that's the game, you take a risk if you put anything, unsupported, where your enemy can easily hit it. When I placed an air unit on the Italian island, the AI sent a carrier fleet to hammer it and, with the present game, the fighter unit couldn't fight back, or move out (no supply). If the enemy had occupied the island, the game allows supply, so the intent is only to equalise things. The good thing is the AI recognised the threat from the island base and took action to deal with it, I just want a fair fight.

The mulberry harbour icon has a defence strength (edit in 'const' file), which I had intended to set as equivalent to a low tech infantry division, just enough to make the island base more than a walk-over for the opposition. At the moment these islands cannot be defended and the enemy can just land and take over, so any improvement is better than nothing. The idea is to either set the mulberry/small harbour cost at some appropriate level in the const file, or set a house rule to extract that cost through F12.

Whatever is done has to leave the normal operation of Mulberry Harbours working for their proper game strategy, as supply for invasions and hoping that the national 'const' files will allow different settings for different nations. This is only half an idea, it needs to be thought through and tested in different scenarios. [:)]

[Rasputitsa]

This is a quick edit of a saved game Italian 'const' file, which seems to work in providing a Mulberry/lite that can be used as a small harbour to get supply into owned islands. Looking at the map, the small harbour game hex in the screen shot would be Lindos on the island of Rhodes, it is situated in a small bay and looks like a small fishing port, but it might be a site to unload supplies to maintain a low level of supply to an airfield on the island. Historically, the town of Rhodes would be a better option as a small port, but that would mean using the editor to move the landing hex to the North end of the island.

You can re-name the harbour unit as SeaBees, Engineers, Marines, whatever you like.

This is a bigger job, but the editor could be used to ensure that there are landing hexes placed that could be used to develop small harbours (e.g Shetland), but not with too many, which might unbalance the game, just looking to equalise the access to supply that the game is not doing now.





I have reduced the strength of the small harbour unit, extended it's life, reduced the build cost to 25 PP, reduced the supply level to 15, to find more appropriate figures, meanwhile the UK Mulberry remains at the original settings for a major invasion supply source, so it seems to work. I do need to run through some game turns to see how it all continues to work and how the AI reacts. [:)]

[baloo7777]

A pretty good solution for the Axis, I think. A fair cost also, and it is vulnerable to attack. The drawback is it does nothing to help the Allies in the same situation. Would be nice if a Mulberry Lite could be modded. Perhaps the designers figured that small island air bases (except Malta) were never really used in the European Theater, as they were in the Pacific? Still, why am I unable to fly off the island, like I flew on to it?!

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777
A pretty good solution for the Axis, I think. A fair cost also, and it is vulnerable to attack. The drawback is it does nothing to help the Allies in the same situation. Would be nice if a Mulberry Lite could be modded. Perhaps the designers figured that small island air bases (except Malta) were never really used in the European Theater, as they were in the Pacific? Still, why am I unable to fly off the island, like I flew on to it?!

You flew your air unit in from an area which had adequate supply, so re-base was available, the islands don't have adequate supply, so to re-base away is not available and you are stuck. The problem is the way the game handles 'alternative supply' to isolated areas of owned hexes. If these were enemy islands, which you had invaded and came under your control, you could get 'alternative supply' from fleets in adjacent sea zones, or bomber units if in range. Until this is fixed, Mulberry/lite is a way to get supply onto isolated owned hexes (islands)

This is just the beginnings of an idea and needs to be worked through. I am proposing to use Mulberry/lite to provide small island harbours for the Axis, but also need the same facility for the Allies to use, maybe on the Channel Islands, Orkneys, Shetland and possibly the Norwegian coast and islands off the French Atlantic coast.

Introducing something for the Allies is more involved, as you still want to have something the represent the full Mulberry Harbour for major landings, but that should be possible. Maybe configure the US for full Mulberry and UK for Mulbery/lite, then the Allies could deploy either, perhaps with the UK having the use of small harbours early in the war, with the availability of full Mulberry after the US joined in.

Another option is to configure all for Mulberry/lite, which you get at reduced PP cost, but impose the full cost through F12, if it is to be installed on the mainland, where the full supply effect can be used. The Axis small harbour would be restricted to island situations, so that if the supply effect was restored to normal (to make the Allied harbour work properly), it wouldn't change things too much as the island supply only has a few hexes to work through.

I am sure that between the scenario's main 'const' file and national 'const' files, by balancing the settings there is a combination that will get both small harbours and full Mulberry working.

House rules on installing them would help, for instance, you can build a Mulberry harbour at will if you have enough PP, but in reality this was a major project in the UK (British ingenuity) to design, construct and assemble two complete Mulberry Harbours for D-Day. It should involve months of preparation and can only be done once. Along with PLUTO (Pipeline Under The Ocean), delivering fuel direct to Normandy, huge preparation was required in 1943/44, which the game makes too easy.

I would work Mulberry/lite into house rules for amphibious operations, to make the whole thing more realistic in terms of preparation time, PP cost and planning delays, so you just can't drop a major invasion in anywhere, any time, with minimal preparation. This planning for the Allies, is a major part of the what-if in 1943/44, after a successful landing the rest is mainly a matter of time.

All of this is being planned for use as Human against the AI, but it could be used in PBEM, as long as you trust your opponent, as it is open to abuse, with the file mods and self imposed restrictions.

[baloo7777]

Introducing something for the Allies is more involved, as you still want to have something the represent the full Mulberry Harbour for major landings, but that should be possible. Maybe configure the US for full Mulberry and UK for Mulbery/lite, then the Allies could deploy either, perhaps with the UK having the use of small harbours early in the war, with the availability of full Mulberry after the US joined in.

I am sure that between the scenario's main 'const' file and national 'const' files, by balancing the settings there is a combination that will get both small harbours and full Mulberry working.

This seems like the best solution. It would need to be agreed on beforehand in PBEM, but I hope to use it in my AI games. The full mulberry is not used by the Allies very often due to the huge PP cost and its vulnerability. I think this is historically accurate, as you pointed out, representing the months of planning needed. If you work out the mod needed for this, could you post it under mods. I would use it as I am in agreement with you on the need for it (I am not good with modding myself)!
I have been getting a supply of 1 or 2 for my stranded air unit, I think due to the adjacent CA patrols, and have been able to fly recon missions at the moment, but cannot rebase. The 'const' file has a 15 supply needed to rebase (mentioned in a post during the air supply problems of the previous version), and I could mod that to 0 to get the air unit off, but feel like I should bite the bullet, as it was an unknown gamble to use the island in the first place. It probably should not be able to fly recon either. Although 15 seems a bit high to be able to rebase to me, 0 is definately unacceptable IMHO!

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

Introducing something for the Allies is more involved, as you still want to have something the represent the full Mulberry Harbour for major landings, but that should be possible. Maybe configure the US for full Mulberry and UK for Mulbery/lite, then the Allies could deploy either, perhaps with the UK having the use of small harbours early in the war, with the availability of full Mulberry after the US joined in.

I am sure that between the scenario's main 'const' file and national 'const' files, by balancing the settings there is a combination that will get both small harbours and full Mulberry working.

This seems like the best solution. It would need to be agreed on beforehand in PBEM, but I hope to use it in my AI games. The full mulberry is not used by the Allies very often due to the huge PP cost and its vulnerability. I think this is historically accurate, as you pointed out, representing the months of planning needed. If you work out the mod needed for this, could you post it under mods. I would use it as I am in agreement with you on the need for it (I am not good with modding myself)!
I have been getting a supply of 1 or 2 for my stranded air unit, I think due to the adjacent CA patrols, and have been able to fly recon missions at the moment, but cannot rebase. The 'const' file has a 15 supply needed to rebase (mentioned in a post during the air supply problems of the previous version), and I could mod that to 0 to get the air unit off, but feel like I should bite the bullet, as it was an unknown gamble to use the island in the first place. It probably should not be able to fly recon either. Although 15 seems a bit high to be able to rebase to me, 0 is definately unacceptable IMHO!

This is all it needs to create Mulberry/lite, on a landing beach hex, for an Axis human player to be able to install small harbours on islands which are owned hexes and can otherwise receive no supply.

[Mulberry]
CostOfInstallingMulberry = 25
SupplyGeneratedByMulberry = 20
MulberryStrength = 2
MonthsRunning = 6

The 25PP cost is intended to reflect the creation of an island garrison, small scale harbour equipment and storage, with the shipping resources necessary to bring in supply, as this is outside the normal game convoy system. The mulberry icon becomes the ground unit defending the island and can be named appropriately.

Supply is set in this case at 20, to keep island hexes at, or above, 15 and enable re-basing out. Alternative is to lower mulberry supply and drop re-base supply limit to match (e.g. mulberry at 15, re-base at 10)

Mulberry strength is at 2, to represent an infantry division equivalent, but easy to edit higher if needed.

Mulberry life is set a 6 months (24 game turns), but haven't been able to play through turns to see if the game will accept that long.

Paste the above into the end of the German and Italian 'const' files and those nations will have access to Mulberry/lite - small harbours. The Allies will continue to use the data in the main 'const' file, or their own national 'const' files and be unaffected. I am using a saved game (from My Games etc..) to avoid changing any of the main scenario files and I want to get this feature into a running game.

It is too grand to call this a mod, just a work-around for a problem of supply to owned islands in the game. Working it into the Allied nations, whilst still keeping full strength Mulberry is a bit more involved and needs more player input, in terms of self imposed house rules and use of F12, but doable. There will be some map editing to provide landing beach hexes on islands that don't currently have them, like Shetland where 'small harbours' can be placed, and working on a list of suitable hexes, which match real harbours on those islands.[:)]

[baloo7777]

Thanks! I have added the above to the German/ Italian const file in my Fall Gelb saved scenario. I am playing as the Allies, so will be interesting to see if the AI will use this for anything. I will try again as the Axis later, so perhaps you will have play-tested the change more by then. By the way, I am also using the rail repair change for Axis AI in this scenario, but it's too early to tell how it affects the game (vs Axis AI).

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777
Thanks! I have added the above to the German/ Italian const file in my Fall Gelb saved scenario. I am playing as the Allies, so will be interesting to see if the AI will use this for anything. I will try again as the Axis later, so perhaps you will have play-tested the change more by then. By the way, I am also using the rail repair change for Axis AI in this scenario, but it's too early to tell how it affects the game (vs Axis AI).

OK, not sure how these file mods change the AI, as it seems to play to it's own rules and doesn't do the clever stuff, like split and merge, but it will be useful when you change to Axis. Can't do much now, but I would like to get Gotterdammerung working as Allies with amphibious operations house rules, map changes and other modifications. [:)]