Auto upgrade phaser cannon -> pulse blaster

[Kayoz]

v 1.9.0.3

Using auto-upgrade on a destroyer (actually, anything) with phaser cannons replaces them with pulse blasters.

I think I've seen something similar to this in previous bug reports, but I can't find anything.

[Arcatus]

Is your blaster tech higher than phaser tech? - If it is then haven't this (or similar issues) always been the case?

I.e. a Racial techs beeing replaced by regular tech, when the regular tech is of a higher tech level (but stat-vice inferior)

[Bingeling]

Which race is it? That could matter as they have weapon preferences in racial policies (research focus) and design files.

[Kayoz]

Pulse blaster is the lowest beam tech. You can't go lower.

Phaser cannon is 4th level up the same tree.

Securan race - so no racial weapons.

I don't see how it can be related to the design files. It's a higher weapon in the same tree - so regardless of racial preferences, it should no replace a higher weapon with a lower one.

[Bingeling]

It is a bug for sure. And securan AI wants to use phasers, so that is no explanation either. There is some noise about this, so hopefully a change is incoming.

[Kayoz]

I don't know what you mean by "wants to use phasers" - I'd love if they'd use the damned phasers instead of the pea-shooter pulse cannons.

[dazoline II]

Its also the same with rail guns. 5 massive rail guns turn into 5 winky pulse blasters after an auto upgrade.

[Bingeling]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

I don't know what you mean by "wants to use phasers" - I'd love if they'd use the damned phasers instead of the pea-shooter pulse cannons.

Every race got their own AI designs templates. The Securan one uses phasers. If they were set to use beam, the bug could make a bit more sense, since the pulse things is the crappiest beam thing. Not that it would make it less buggy.

[TanC]

I have this issue too. I always research the heck out of phasers but one mistake of clicking the Auto Upgrade button, they all revert back to the dismal damage pulse blasters. [:(]

[dazoline II]

Pulse blasters and several other pre warp weapons show up when "Only show latest components" is checked when designing a new ship in game with clearly superceding tech researched and in the list as well.

[ehsumrell1]

ORIGINAL: TanC

I have this issue too. I always research the heck out of phasers but one mistake of clicking the Auto Upgrade button, they all revert back to the dismal damage pulse blasters. [:(]

Elliot is aware of this and a fix in upcoming in the next update.
[:)]

[Florestan]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
I think I've seen something similar to this in previous bug reports, but I can't find anything.

Indeed.

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1
Elliot is aware of this and a fix in upcoming in the next update.

Indeed.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Florestan

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1
Elliot is aware of this and a fix in upcoming in the next update.

Indeed.

Not fixed in 1.9.0.4

Having tech:
Phased Beams and Efficient Blasters

Phaser Cannon (the higher of the two) is replaced with Maxos Blasters (Efficient Blasters, the lower tech). No other tech from that tree researched. Phased Beams is the highest weapon tech researched. Race: Securans

Proof:
Uploaded file: DWS-1904-UpgradeToLower.rar
Test: Auto-upgrade design for frigate. Note that before, weapon is phaser cannon. Upgrade changes to Maxos Blaster

[Florestan]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Proof:
Uploaded file: DWS-1904-UpgradeToLower.rar
Test: Auto-upgrade design for frigate. Note that before, weapon is phaser cannon. Upgrade changes to Maxos Blaster

Well, I would have believed you the same without a proof!
They are supposed to have fixed it, and I did not see it since. And the original bug was more the fact that the higher techs did not appear when “only shows later techs” was checked. It had consequences on auto upgrade. Do you get this too?
Maybe it is an occurrence of another, ancient bug, that same old that replaces SW7F robotic repairs by the basic damage control? I also reminded them of it in my thread about the pulse blaster bug. I've no idea why they never fixed it. And if you want to use both long range range and heavy blasters on single ship, or both Deucalios and Talassos shields (which both make sense), you cannot use auto upgrade either without having them replaced. This kind of defeats the idea of having several technologies with pros and cons for each.
Well, unless they see reason about that, I suppose we will have to continue upgrading manually. And continue risking to miss the upgrade of that blasted standard armor plate, acceleros engine, or some other critical piece of equipment.
Well they don't remove equipment that is not necessary anymore either, like the heavy and costy solar collectors, generators, or even thrusters (who needs a ship with a 60 cruise speed?). Why, the default starting ships and base are not even balanced to begin with. Why having 4 solar collectors on a mining station when one is enough? And do that when at the same time, default civilian ship don't even have enough generators to reach top speed?
Well, I suppose no game can be perfect.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Florestan
Well, I would have believed you the same without a proof!

I should have used "demonstration of bug" - hopefully Elliot will understand.

ORIGINAL: Florestan
They are supposed to have fixed it, and I did not see it since. And the original bug was more the fact that the higher techs did not appear when “only shows later techs” was checked. It had consequences on auto upgrade. Do you get this too?

No, the upgrade window shows the correct tech when the "show latest components" is ticked. I'm not sure why it puts phasers at the bottom of the list instead of with the rest of the weapons.

It used to replace them with pulse cannons - so it's an improvement. But it's still undeniably broken.

ORIGINAL: Florestan
Maybe it is an occurrence of another, ancient bug, that same old that replaces SW7F robotic repairs by the basic damage control?

Two possibilities that come to mind -
First, the value he's assigned to each tech is a series of numbers to identify each weapon which is messed up - such that "phaser cannon" has the wrong number and it's looking for a replacement in the wrong branch - and gave you pulse cannons before, as a default fail-safe replacement.

Second possibility is that Elliot flags "best in class" whenever a tech level is passed, which would explain why if you discover Equinox drive and then Kaldos, with both at the same level (displacement from left), any upgrade done at that point will replace your existing Equinox drives with Kaldos. If this is the case, then he isn't flagging phaser cannon discovery as "best in class" when it's discovered. Which may be a result of it having the wrong value (above), or he's hard-coded tech level gain events, and he's simply forgotten to perform the flagging for some tech (phaser cannon here, or repair system as you noted. Inefficient if he did so, but not impossible that he might choose to hard-code every tech level gain event.

Either way, the fix should be pretty easy to suss out - if he has dug his way out of the ever-increasing mountain of bugs which seem to be piling up on a daily basis.

ORIGINAL: Florestan
Well they don't remove equipment that is not necessary anymore either, like the heavy and costy solar collectors, generators, or even thrusters (who needs a ship with a 60 cruise speed?). Why, the default starting ships and base are not even balanced to begin with.

There's a configuration file for each race's ship type - for example, Securan destroyer template is:
C:\Matrix Games\Distant Worlds\designTemplates\securan\destroyer.txt
It has a number for each component type (shields, beam weapon, missile weapon, etc) - which it tries to use if it can. But if this is not kept in synch with the game balance stage (tinkering with the value of energy collectors, for example, might have raised the value), it'll retain the pre-balancing amount which leaves it with an energy collection surplus.
Or you're playing at a tech level that the templates weren't balanced for. Thus you have much higher energy collection values due to later tech level - and don't need as many.
Given the number of tech development possibilities in the game, I don't think there's an easy solution to making truly optimal designs. It would take time that I suspect he doesn't have...

[necaradan666]

ORIGINAL: Florestan

use both long range range and heavy blasters on single ship, or both Deucalios and Talassos shields (which both make sense), you cannot use auto upgrade either without having them replaced. This kind of defeats the idea of having several technologies with pros and cons for each.

I think those two examples are a little different than any 'standard template' if you can call it that. Probably more suited to manually designing and updating your ships.

The AI does pretty well automating ship design as it is, you're not going to suffer too badly for it even if you're only inclined to use the defaults it gives you. Like Kayoz says the number of possibilities pretty much preclude getting too inventive with designs and expecting them to upgrade perfectly along your desired paths, which is why it's nice that you can do it manually.

Knowing which is better between quick charge and high powered type of shields would require a level of situational awareness that's got to be too high for the AI to handle without a significant amount of work.

...also just confirming that I can reproduce the phaser to maxos blaster upgrade in 1.9.0.4

[Florestan]

I too, like to make wild theories about how things work [:)]
But the “best in class” theory does not match: when given a choice between same level equipments, the auto-upgrade always takes the one nearest to the top. So, shatterforce laser, Quantum engine, acceleros thruster, and so on. And damage control. And also that damn combat targeting over the raptor. And a few others. At least the shadowghost is preferred over the countermeasures system. And the turbo thruster, and a few others. But the auto upgrade seems to be quite a simple piece of code. Too simple to my taste, but I suppose I'll have to live with it.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Given the number of tech development possibilities in the game, I don't think there's an easy solution to making truly optimal designs. It would take time that I suspect he doesn't have…

Quite a bit of interesting thinking and programming, and even more tedious testing. All this for the two of us to be happy, while most of the others won't even notice! The ungrateful bastards! [:D]

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Florestan
But the “best in class” theory does not match: when given a choice between same level equipments, the auto-upgrade always takes the one nearest to the top.

Interesting. I think you're right. I thought it was the most recent - but it does seem to be choosing the closest to the top.

Sloppy programming, really. Pity it's gone unfixed for this long. It's been an issue since DW:RotS - plenty of time since then to have fixed this.

ORIGINAL: Florestan
All this for the two of us to be happy, while most of the others won't even notice! The ungrateful bastards! [:D]

Not really. I think these sorts of silly defects detract from the game and can give a new player a negative impression very quickly - and as any business can tell you, a bad reputation is bad for business. Anyone who thinks the games industry works otherwise should look at Sim City... though perhaps that's an unfair comparison. If Shadows had spent another couple of weeks in beta - and with some organization of the beta testers, the tidal wave of defects since release could have been reduced to a merely unpleasant wobble. How many bugs have I logged since release? And I'm not even TRYING to break it!

[Kayoz]

Bug still lingers in 1.9.0.6

Maxos blasters do not upgrade to phasers even though they are available.

[elliotg]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Bug still lingers in 1.9.0.6

Maxos blasters do not upgrade to phasers even though they are available.

Hi Kayoz

This is by design. Phasers are considered to be a different weapon type from a standard beam weapon. Thus a standard beam weapon will not 'auto-upgrade' to a phaser.

Thanks
Elliot