HQ's again

[JudgeDredd]

I thought this had been addressed quite some time ago but I'm afraid the same old issue of HQ's running ahead of their units is still very prevalent.

This was a Probe command

[dazkaz15]

It's strange because I have not seen this happen at all in many hours of game play.
Although I have seen the support units leading problem.

I wonder if it has anything to do with a difference in the way we set our waypoints, or the type of orders we use.
It might even be scenario specific?
I have also found that manually changing the formation width, and depth can cause problems, by squeezing some of the units out of formation, so I generally use auto width, and depth or only change it by a few notches rather than squeeze it right down.
Dave did a lot of work on the formations, and I find using auto so long as the terrain is not restrictive gives me very nicely formed formations.

[Grim.Reaper]

Jd, are you patched up to the latest version?

[JudgeDredd]

I would think so - I've only just bought this (CotA) - I would presume the latest version is the one you buy on release.

But even if not, I used the in game menu to check for an update and it said my game was up to date

[Grim.Reaper]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I would think so - I've only just bought this (CotA) - I would presume the latest version is the one you buy on release.

But even if not, I used the in game menu to check for an update and it said my game was up to date

Sorry JD, I meant the base game since that is where the actual engine resides....but if you did the check for update, one would think you are.

[JudgeDredd]

v4.4.263 is displayed when looking in ABOUT

[Grim.Reaper]

Sounds like the latest and greatest....

[dazkaz15]

I'm sure Dave will look into it when he gets back to work, but he will need a game save to be able to run a test on it, probably just after the orders are given for the move, before it takes the lead.

[Arjuna]

Yep that's what I will need.

BTW JD your original screen dump doesn't really tell me anything as there is no indication of where the objective is and what forces are under command. In future please select the HQ before making the screen dump. This will show its objective. Also ensure you have the current force structure set on the display toolbar. This will then draw command lines to your current forces under command.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

I'm sure Dave will look into it when he gets back to work, but he will need a game save to be able to run a test on it, probably just after the orders are given for the move, before it takes the lead.

Really? How was I meant to now this was going to happen? Or is the suggestion I take a screen dump every time I issue an order? [;)]

Dave

Granted. Sorry. It was quite obvious to me - but I kind of forgot I was playing it so it would be. Just to flesh that out a bit, that particular recon unit was given a probe order and the force was moving south - so the HW unit is way ahead of the force. Also, it had been there a while.

If it happens again and I notice, I'll take a shot when I notice and include what's required.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

I'm sure Dave will look into it when he gets back to work, but he will need a game save to be able to run a test on it, probably just after the orders are given for the move, before it takes the lead.

Really? How was I meant to now this was going to happen? Or is the suggestion I take a screen dump every time I issue an order? [;)]

Dave

Granted. Sorry. It was quite obvious to me - but I kind of forgot I was playing it so it would be. Just to flesh that out a bit, that particular recon unit was given a probe order and the force was moving south - so the HW unit is way ahead of the force. Also, it had been there a while.

If it happens again and I notice, I'll take a shot when I notice and include what's required.

There was a new feature added not that long ago that really helps with the debugging of the game.
Its an auto save feature that can be turned on in the options tab in game.
It saves the game to your hard drive very 5 min in a 20 save cycle.
Its also very useful if you have a power cut or a crash.
I recommend everyone turn this feature on if its not already.
It has no effect on my system at all in regard to game speed but I am running quite a high end rig.

[JudgeDredd]

^ Thank you.

That would definitely help Dave.

[Brindlebane]

I've spent quite a bit of time on the game(and my tactics are still as terrible as ever).Never seen the HQs leading an assault myself.One thing i have noticed though about HQs,is sometimes when they try to join their subordinates after a move they take a totally dumb route from the one originally set by me.Even if the way is clear.Usually leading to them wandering out on the flank somewhere and then coming under fire which in turn grinds the whole Bn to a halt because it can't re-org.Can totally screw up a whole assault at times.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: Brindlebane

I've spent quite a bit of time on the game(and my tactics are still as terrible as ever).Never seen the HQs leading an assault myself.One thing i have noticed though about HQs,is sometimes when they try to join their subordinates after a move they take a totally dumb route from the one originally set by me.Even if the way is clear.Usually leading to them wandering out on the flank somewhere and then coming under fire which in turn grinds the whole Bn to a halt because it can't re-org.Can totally screw up a whole assault at times.

Yeah, I have brought this up before in the public beta, and suggested that the HQ take the same route to the objective for the RV on the objective phase, as the line units took during their assault, to take advantage of the cleared terrain.

At the moment they take an avoidance route I think, with can take them on a very different route, often through terrain that you know to be infested with enemy but the AI is not aware of.
As a work around to this though, when you know the battle for the objective is won, start to detach your line units form the HQ and give them individual orders to move into good defensive positions, and the HQ a direct order with waypoints to move to the Objective, then when they arrive you can recombine them with a defend in situ.
If you don't want quite as much micro then drag select the line units on the objective, and order them to defend on it, by placing a defend order as usual.
The senior Coy will take command of the group, then give your HQ better individual orders to move to the Objective then recombine once it gets there.

[Brindlebane]

Thanks for that info Daz.Yeah it can be annoying at times.Especially in cases where the objective is won and all you want to do is re-org and move on and you can't because you're HQ is hung up on a flank and getting shot up to hell.

Still having minor issues with footprints also,your units can sometimes move beyond the set footprint,out of cover and into the open.Again annoying,after using the LOS tool for an FUP which is out of sight,your units over extend and next you know,your FUP is toast because of all the arty falling on them.

Assaults also with the footprint,say you take a town or village,you try to set the footprint to cover the exact area you're taking or close to it and in the end up you're sometimes lucky if you have two units in cover never mind the whole Bn.So you have to micro again to get them all back in.Not really an issue but i'd have thought that was the idea of setting footprint parimeters.

Just some small gripes,not complaints,totally addicted to the game.The above is part of the learning curve i guess in my case.Knowing what i can and can't do [:)]

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Brindlebane
Still having minor issues with footprints also,your units can sometimes move beyond the set footprint,out of cover and into the open.Again annoying,after using the LOS tool for an FUP which is out of sight,your units over extend and next you know,your FUP is toast because of all the arty falling on them.

We've been discussing how to increase the fidelity of footprints to avoid some of the most jarring artifacts one can get (Road Column formation is the one where the approximation doesn't work very well). It's possible to do - i.e. by breaking down the current footprint into smaller, more fine-grained footprints - but it's not going to happen until CO2.

ORIGINAL: Brindlebane
Assaults also with the footprint,say you take a town or village,you try to set the footprint to cover the exact area you're taking or close to it and in the end up you're sometimes lucky if you have two units in cover never mind the whole Bn.So you have to micro again to get them all back in.Not really an issue but i'd have thought that was the idea of setting footprint parimeters.

Here the AI will override you always: note that the Assault not only involves securing the immediate vicinity of the objective, but also the necessary exploitation to secure the approaches to the objective are (that is, your line units will try to achieve final positions that are good defensive positions and cover the objective). If you're not happy with that, as soon as the attack finishes, issue a Defend task with the parameters that best suit you.

We want to introduce a greater variety in the kind of plans the AI comes up with for Assault tasks. But, at the risk of repeating like a broken record, that's not gonna happen until we move the engine into the next major revision.

[Brindlebane]

Thanks for the explanations.It just took me a while with the game to work out what to do with the footprints for a while.I wasn't sure wether i had to place the HQ in the right place or wether i was short of the objective,basically that sort of thing.If the AI is deciding on the final positioning,that's fine.Micro for final defensive then.Just thought it was something i was doing wrong.Though with my tactics,it might well be [:D]

[Brindlebane]

Just started to play through BftB as a campaign using the appendix G in the manual(god i love this game).HQs following after an assault really is a major issue as they take an avoidance path,and straight into trouble.Okay so now i know about it and can deal with it.It really is a pain though as you have to break off the general assault by the Bn and mini micro every unit to get the HQ back to safety.Now if this Bn is badly needed to secure victory in a firefight it can lead to total failure and a waste of half a day or more in an assault.It can be quite frustrating.A fix please in a future patch or game engine.

Regarding footprints in assaults.For every assault i was doing i was using Line formation.Now switched to always using a Vee and it's given better results.No probs with footprints at all now.Please just sort that HQ issue somehow [:)]

[jimcarravall]

ORIGINAL: Brindlebane

Just started to play through BftB as a campaign using the appendix G in the manual(god i love this game).HQs following after an assault really is a major issue as they take an avoidance path,and straight into trouble.Okay so now i know about it and can deal with it.It really is a pain though as you have to break off the general assault by the Bn and mini micro every unit to get the HQ back to safety.Now if this Bn is badly needed to secure victory in a firefight it can lead to total failure and a waste of half a day or more in an assault.It can be quite frustrating.A fix please in a future patch or game engine.

Regarding footprints in assaults.For every assault i was doing i was using Line formation.Now switched to always using a Vee and it's given better results.No probs with footprints at all now.Please just sort that HQ issue somehow [:)]

Taking an avoidance path is normal behavior for a high value target.

Keep in mind that the unit can only avoid what can be seen on the battlefield.

Means the area between the HQ and the assaulting force still requires some scouting to assure that there is enough intelligence available to help define the path.

[dazkaz15]

Sorry for resurrecting this old post but I must have missed Jims post at the time.

Your statement above is very true Jim, but from a players point of view, critiquing the AI's behaviour this is what I think of it.

Jim said, "Taking an avoidance path is normal behavior for a high value target."
I agree, so why has the AI decided to route it through un-reconnoitred terrain instead of following the cleared terrain that the HQ's line units have just cleared?

Jim said, "Keep in mind that the unit can only avoid what can be seen on the battlefield."
That's true for the AI, but a real life commander would have a certain amount of tactical awareness, that would tell him there are possible enemy down that un-cleared road.

Jim said, "Means the area between the HQ and the assaulting force still requires some scouting to assure that there is enough intelligence available to help define the path."
The HQ has 3 line units under his command, he should indeed have his "avaoidance route" scouted before trundling blindly along it, or follow a route that his line units have just scouted.

Obviously the game has limitations, its 5 years old, and is still in incredibly good shape even by modern standards.
So long as you are aware of these limitations there are usually ways to work around them.
What I do is when the objective is nearly secure, is I intervene by giving the line units direct orders, to move to their new defensive locations, and the HQ a proper order with way points, to re join its line units.
This increased the micromanagement but sometimes you have to step in to make up for the limitations of the games AI.