In the save, I've given Ott an order to reorg and assault which can be seen in the save. However, the units 1.25, 2.25 and 3.25 has decided to not assault in a straight line to the ObjLoc but take a detour. Perhaps an error? There are no motorised vehicles in these units that can't move via the woods, and so I don't understand why they are doing this.
Edit: The same situation is happening with the 989 Bn to the north, which leads me to think that the cause was me changing the amount of rest in the order window, which I did for both of these units.
Assault Pathing Problem
Moderators: Panther Paul, Arjuna
Assault Pathing Problem
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- COpsSave1.zip
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Have: Socks. Deodorant. £2 gloves. Mince pies.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
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Brindlebane
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:17 pm
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
If you check all the units that are attached to your HQ,i think you'll find that both the AT gun and the mortar have a vehicle or two in them.I think to use OTT you have to have just the three infantry units that are attached to move through cover.OTT is a mixture of infantry and motorised.
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
Yes Ott is a problem because of that. I thought I detatched the motorised units before issuing the order but I'll check again.
Have: Socks. Deodorant. £2 gloves. Mince pies.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
1.48 Bn reorganized where the Bn HQ is, then attacked in Vee formation to where they are now. The enemy unit E.394 was at the crossroads where it is now for the whole attack, and at one point was routed with unit strength 0. My unit 1.48 then proceeded to move over and past unit E.394 when it's footprint totally enveloped unit E.394.
postimg.org/image/u7eq477ct/
Units appear very reluctant to surrender or even retreat in the face of overwhelming odds. I can't remember how long these 3 brave men stuck around for but it was a significant and imo unrealistic amount of time.
postimg.org/image/ytauonr9f/
*I can't post imaged yet so I've included the URL instead.
**Using patch 4.4.263
postimg.org/image/u7eq477ct/
Units appear very reluctant to surrender or even retreat in the face of overwhelming odds. I can't remember how long these 3 brave men stuck around for but it was a significant and imo unrealistic amount of time.
postimg.org/image/ytauonr9f/
*I can't post imaged yet so I've included the URL instead.
**Using patch 4.4.263
Have: Socks. Deodorant. £2 gloves. Mince pies.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
I appreciate that I complain a lot, many people have told me as much. I love the game but some aspects irritate me no end because I can't understand the logic behind the circumstances that occur. Here's my gripes, I'd appreciate any explantion if it makes sense, or support from other players who have encountered similar issues.
1. The overrun I mentioned above. Maybe it's possible, in wooded terrain, for units to move past the enemy, I understand that, but when it is 150 men spread 200m x 100m overrunning 30 men I can't see how this is possible. Moreover, the 30 men who are routing should be running away as fast as possible and not allowing themselves to be overrun.
2. The surrender issue, because it seems to me that the mechanic uses the initial unit strength when calculating when to retreat. Elsenborn Ridge, the allies have a recon unit of 16 men positioned to the south of the map. Even when reduced to 8 men or less then will fight on in the face of an advancing SS regiment, rather than retreat to their Battalion HQ and merge into another company. My suggestion would be to either have them flee to the nearest friendly units that is in a direct away from the enemy, or simply introduce a mechanic where units whose AArm and APer is less than x are disbanded, or surrender automatically, or something that makes them less of a nuisance.
3. Ordering a Bn to attack in line formation, 1500m wide, I expected the three line units to each be 500m wide but what happened was that the companies to the left and right were only 200m wide, the middle unit about 500m wide. This led to huge gaps in the line where enemy units (that damnable 16 man strong unit above was one of them) are bypassed and left behind my lines again.
1. The overrun I mentioned above. Maybe it's possible, in wooded terrain, for units to move past the enemy, I understand that, but when it is 150 men spread 200m x 100m overrunning 30 men I can't see how this is possible. Moreover, the 30 men who are routing should be running away as fast as possible and not allowing themselves to be overrun.
2. The surrender issue, because it seems to me that the mechanic uses the initial unit strength when calculating when to retreat. Elsenborn Ridge, the allies have a recon unit of 16 men positioned to the south of the map. Even when reduced to 8 men or less then will fight on in the face of an advancing SS regiment, rather than retreat to their Battalion HQ and merge into another company. My suggestion would be to either have them flee to the nearest friendly units that is in a direct away from the enemy, or simply introduce a mechanic where units whose AArm and APer is less than x are disbanded, or surrender automatically, or something that makes them less of a nuisance.
3. Ordering a Bn to attack in line formation, 1500m wide, I expected the three line units to each be 500m wide but what happened was that the companies to the left and right were only 200m wide, the middle unit about 500m wide. This led to huge gaps in the line where enemy units (that damnable 16 man strong unit above was one of them) are bypassed and left behind my lines again.
Have: Socks. Deodorant. £2 gloves. Mince pies.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
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Brindlebane
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:17 pm
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
I can understand your frustrations,having only got into the games myself earlier this year.The learning curve is huge and the AI can be a cunning dog,i've never played a game like this before,it's epic.
One thing i learnt very quickly is learning how the game mechanics work.I was very very frustrated in the beginning but after some tinkering and reading these forums and playthroughs i started to realise how it all comes together.So my take on your points and bear in mind i'm still at noob status.
1.The overrun.If you plan your assault and leave all the settings at normal ie ROF,Aggro etc.Your guys will move and fire and try and reach their objective even if there is a unit infront of them.One Company might stall and engage but the other two will carry on until they get to their objective albeit stopping to engage now and again.
Now if you have your setting at high Aggro,ROF,Losses etc upon contact you guys will stop and engage and won't move until the danger has passed.At least that's what i found.
2.Surrender.The enemy AI does merge and disband units.I've dropped constant arty barrages on units at crossroads or roadblocks and seen them reduced to twos or ones,if not destroyed.Just a point here on small units behind your lines.You should have at least one Bn of reserves or whatever you have to spare behind your front.If you bypass a unit your reserves can do the mopping up,their supplies are cut anyway,they won't last long.
3.I wouldn't use a single Bn spread to 1500 m for an assault.Infact i wouldn't use a single Bn to assault period.Always use a minimum of two Bns and spread them 500 to 600ms wide.The thing is with a single Bn even if your up against a single unit,it could quite easily pick off each comapany as it comes into contact and make them retreat individually,thus causing the whole assault to grind to a halt.Now with two or three Bns your flanks are covered,your front is tight(nothing to get through the net and even if it does,those reserves) and if one assault is stalled,the other coming from a different direction won't be.
Sorry to be longwinded there but like i say i'm still a noob but if something doesn't work for you in the game.Try a different approach.In the game don't take something on with small jabs,smack it hard and with maximum force and then move on to the next obstruction.Hold the Line in places whilst crushing on another part.
One thing i learnt very quickly is learning how the game mechanics work.I was very very frustrated in the beginning but after some tinkering and reading these forums and playthroughs i started to realise how it all comes together.So my take on your points and bear in mind i'm still at noob status.
1.The overrun.If you plan your assault and leave all the settings at normal ie ROF,Aggro etc.Your guys will move and fire and try and reach their objective even if there is a unit infront of them.One Company might stall and engage but the other two will carry on until they get to their objective albeit stopping to engage now and again.
Now if you have your setting at high Aggro,ROF,Losses etc upon contact you guys will stop and engage and won't move until the danger has passed.At least that's what i found.
2.Surrender.The enemy AI does merge and disband units.I've dropped constant arty barrages on units at crossroads or roadblocks and seen them reduced to twos or ones,if not destroyed.Just a point here on small units behind your lines.You should have at least one Bn of reserves or whatever you have to spare behind your front.If you bypass a unit your reserves can do the mopping up,their supplies are cut anyway,they won't last long.
3.I wouldn't use a single Bn spread to 1500 m for an assault.Infact i wouldn't use a single Bn to assault period.Always use a minimum of two Bns and spread them 500 to 600ms wide.The thing is with a single Bn even if your up against a single unit,it could quite easily pick off each comapany as it comes into contact and make them retreat individually,thus causing the whole assault to grind to a halt.Now with two or three Bns your flanks are covered,your front is tight(nothing to get through the net and even if it does,those reserves) and if one assault is stalled,the other coming from a different direction won't be.
Sorry to be longwinded there but like i say i'm still a noob but if something doesn't work for you in the game.Try a different approach.In the game don't take something on with small jabs,smack it hard and with maximum force and then move on to the next obstruction.Hold the Line in places whilst crushing on another part.
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
Just took a look at your save. Interesting. I checked the tasking and those units have been issued a valid order to Reorg at the FUP but for some reason have overridden the location and hence are moving to location on the far side of the objective. To find out why I need to step through the planning process.ORIGINAL: Mahatma
In the save, I've given Ott an order to reorg and assault which can be seen in the save. However, the units 1.25, 2.25 and 3.25 has decided to not assault in a straight line to the ObjLoc but take a detour. Perhaps an error? There are no motorised vehicles in these units that can't move via the woods, and so I don't understand why they are doing this.
Edit: The same situation is happening with the 989 Bn to the north, which leads me to think that the cause was me changing the amount of rest in the order window, which I did for both of these units.
Do you have an earlier save, preferably just before you gave the order?
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
Unfortunately I don't have a previous save, but I repeated the scenario and the same event happened again. Ott appears, I give him a reorg order where he is now, and an attack order, which can be seen in the game. Initially, Ott's companies carried out the attack order as requested, but now they have gone walkabouts again, trying to take a detour around the enemy to reach the ObjLoc.
Same thing happened with another unit earlier in the game, I think because they made it halfway, stopped, waited, then decided to detour like Ott is doing.
Same thing happened with another unit earlier in the game, I think because they made it halfway, stopped, waited, then decided to detour like Ott is doing.
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- COpsOttP..ngError.zip
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Have: Socks. Deodorant. £2 gloves. Mince pies.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
Was this order given at scenario start?
Were there any enemy at or near the objective when you gave the order?
Were there any enemy at or near the objective when you gave the order?
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
The order was given when Ott arrived as a reinforcement. At the time, there were no enemies at the attack location, but there were enemies between the reorg location and the attack location.
Regarding the surrender issue, I've killed maybe 50 units and all were either destroyed or surrendered, not one has disbanded. Of the 5 or so units I've lost, at least one was disbanded. Unit IR394 in the south of Elsenborn Ridge, starts with 16 men and will not surrender even when reduced to 7 men and forced to flee, they'll even regroup with 3 men and join the fight later in the day.
Regarding the surrender issue, I've killed maybe 50 units and all were either destroyed or surrendered, not one has disbanded. Of the 5 or so units I've lost, at least one was disbanded. Unit IR394 in the south of Elsenborn Ridge, starts with 16 men and will not surrender even when reduced to 7 men and forced to flee, they'll even regroup with 3 men and join the fight later in the day.
Have: Socks. Deodorant. £2 gloves. Mince pies.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
Talking to myself, the reason IR 394 don't surrender easily is because their starting unit strength is 100% with 16 men, is that right? So reducing them by 50% to 8 men is identical, as far as the surrender calculation is concerned, to reducing a 100 man unit to 50. Strange.
Have: Socks. Deodorant. £2 gloves. Mince pies.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
Artillery units do not appear to use their 7.92mm leMG 42s or other machine guns when enemy units are in LOS and range, and the unit has enough men to man both artillery pieces and light machine guns. The attached file shows that IV Bn 277 had 12992 7.92mm rounds with a defend order. 30 minutes later I check the round and there are 12992 7.92mm rounds. Then I give a fire order, at the nearest unit, check 30 minutes later and see that 7.92mm rounds have been fired.
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- ArtilleryFire1.jpg (673.44 KiB) Viewed 402 times
Have: Socks. Deodorant. £2 gloves. Mince pies.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
A few things that may be the problem here are:
It may be an old sighting of US unit that you are seeing on the map and not a current one. Even if it is still there its visibility, and activity to your Artillery unit may not be high enough to consider it a current threat.
Check your TLOS tool so see if the unit does consider it a current threat or not.
As it is only an infantry Platoon in size, in the forest, and entrenched I expect its visibility is very low indeed. It may be even able to fire at your artillery without your artillery being able to fire back, because it doesn't know where the firing is coming from.
In this situation you are right to order your artillery unit a direct fire order to fire at that area, because you as the player suspect that the enemy Platoon is still there, but you can't expect the AI to suppress all old or poor sightings, because you will soon be complaining that they have ran out of ammunition, firing on locations with old sightings of enemy units.
Bare in mind though that the direct fire order is an area target, with reduced lethality, and is generally used to suppress the area rather than kill what's in it.
Would be the same as spraying the forest with bullets, rather than aiming at a target.
You may get lucky though, and flush it out, but as its entrenched I doubt that it will do much good at all.
What you really need to de here is get some infantry in there to flush it out of its hole.
It may be an old sighting of US unit that you are seeing on the map and not a current one. Even if it is still there its visibility, and activity to your Artillery unit may not be high enough to consider it a current threat.
Check your TLOS tool so see if the unit does consider it a current threat or not.
As it is only an infantry Platoon in size, in the forest, and entrenched I expect its visibility is very low indeed. It may be even able to fire at your artillery without your artillery being able to fire back, because it doesn't know where the firing is coming from.
In this situation you are right to order your artillery unit a direct fire order to fire at that area, because you as the player suspect that the enemy Platoon is still there, but you can't expect the AI to suppress all old or poor sightings, because you will soon be complaining that they have ran out of ammunition, firing on locations with old sightings of enemy units.
Bare in mind though that the direct fire order is an area target, with reduced lethality, and is generally used to suppress the area rather than kill what's in it.
Would be the same as spraying the forest with bullets, rather than aiming at a target.
You may get lucky though, and flush it out, but as its entrenched I doubt that it will do much good at all.
What you really need to de here is get some infantry in there to flush it out of its hole.
RE: Assault Pathing Problem
Thanks Dazkaz, checking again I can confirm that the artillery units do indeed use their machine guns when there is a threat present.
Have: Socks. Deodorant. £2 gloves. Mince pies.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.
Want: Line formation banned until I give a specific order to use line formation. Troops that don't take lie-ins until 0800 unless ordered to never rest.