Maas-Rijn adapted - 2 extra divisions

[Phoenix100]

Following a suggestion that I should adapt the biggest scenario in the HTTR add-on to make a what-if scenario that the allies could win (theoretically) I'm going to upload my adapted 'From the Meuse to the Rhine' scenario in case anyone is interested in seeing just how difficult it would have been to get a victory at Arnhem. This is a huge scenario. It's From the Meuse to the Rijn with 2 Divisions added and everyone dropped on day 1 closer to the objectives. It's predicated on the idea that XXX Corps should have been able to fight through to Grave unaided (without the 101st taking bridges for them) and arrive there by dawn day 4 (1 day later than in the original). This isn't as absurd as it might sound - it was part of the plan envisaged in Market Garden's cancelled predecessor - Operation Comet - except the expectation was that XXX Corps would only take 2 days to get to Grave.

It really is more than a what-if, because 17th Airborne (and a big thanks to Jim for putting 17th AB together!) were not ready at the time and there definitely wasn't enough planes to drop all the troops I've dropped on day 1. Neither was there the level of supplies I've put in. Nor would they have accepted re-supply drops so close to the major city targets. Maybe you couldn't even put that many troops down in the area I've allotted. I don't know - I'm neither military, nor military historian, though I do know that many of these drop zones were considered but ruled out, mainly because of the fear of flak. But it's fun to play (a different kind of fun to the fun to be had by being continually trashed in the historically accurate original), and instructive as to just how hard it would be to get a victory, because, despite all this firepower, it's still no walk over, at least for me.....

There follows the .cos file - in zipped form (just unzip into your scenario folder) then a few rough pics showing where the Dz areas are.

Like I said, this is just in case anyone is interested. There's a list of changes in the briefing.

Comments very welcome, if anyone ever gets round to playing it. Like I said, it's quite big! I have a fairly good system but find that the processor (an i5, 3.2) bottlenecks with this, so things lurch along if you play on any speed other than single arrow. Which means you have a long time to enjoy everything and control everything. But also that it might take you a few weeks to play it through (the same is true of the original scenario, I've found).

[Phoenix100]

Rough pic showing drop zones for the 82nd and 17th.

[Phoenix100]

Same for 101st

[Phoenix100]

And 1st Airborne and the Poles. You can see the objective list here too.

[dazkaz15]

Looks good mate.
I'm still playing the one you sent me at the moment, when I get time.

The Jeep problem is a killer for the Airborne guys. Once they run out of basics they cant even move [X(]
I have managed to save the Arnhem bridgehead though by rushing a guards Bn through, and quickly pushing all the medium artillery to within range of Arnhem, and allocating it for exclusive use to 1st and 4th Para Brigade, who were tasked to hold the bridgehead.

I'm just about to experiment by sending the depots that are out of vehicles into an assault where they will hopefully get disbanded, and supply will be re allocated to a different depot.....I hope.

[Phoenix100]

Yes, I remember someone else mentioning that tactic - sending the bases to their doom. Needs fixing if we need to do that!

How did you assign the artillery for exclusive use? You mean you grouped them with 1st and 4th Para?

[skarp]

Hi phoenix

Thanks for this. I'm always interested in variations on Market Garden and this one is the gold plated deluxe version

I'm sure the extra 2 divisions are vast overkill but there's only one way to find out. I'm going to try to win without XXX Corps so that it's intact for that war winning push into the Reich.

So far I've reached day 2 0600 hrs. KG Henke is all but destroyed and I've trapped 2000 or so troops from Kraft, Helle, Schultz and Harder in a pocket

Anyway there's some possible bugs you may want to be aware of.

1. A unit of Harmer appears in the midst of Doornenborg even though I've blown the ferries see pix

2. Many units of artillery and KOSB and S. Staffs have no base - is that intentional? I know you've reduced supply on D1 but no bases?

3. An enemy battlegroup appears out of nowhere in Elst during the morning of day 2

4. A commander is shown as HQ 3 bn 327 but units are coys A, B and C 401 GIR

5. Mortar platoon 2/507 PIR has the icon for mortar platoon 1/507

6. 505 Bn Hqs seem over-strength at about 240 men each.

Anyway thanks again and I'll let you know how I get on.

cheers

skarp

[Phoenix100]

Cheers Skarp. Hope you do get a win....if you can't with this much materiel....well, not strictly true. You will still get the supply problem, I think. Each base is pretty huge now, with many more jeeps, but I think over the length of the op you might still suffer significant attrition as an effect of getting rid of all the minor VLs is that the Axis really concentrates on the two bridgeheads, and that makes it easier for it to interdict your supply. Still, - 2 extra divisions. You're right, it should be overkill...

The 'bugs'

1. I thought I'd moved the Harmer KG across the river, but obviously not all of it! I'll check. In the original it just appears at Doornenberg.
2. No base? Don't understand that at all. I'll have to check that too. I can't see why that would have happened just by me moving their drop zones, drop times or SEPs. You're sure that's not just because you've queried it before the first supply event - I think they show up with no supply line etc until they actually demand a supply event. Not certain, but I know ALL the para units have no supply lines when they first land and then get them after 6pm ish when the AI does its first supply chain check. It's not this? When did you notice they had no bases?
3. Will check the Elst appearance - it's probably in the original. I'll try to find it and move it.
4&5. I had noticed these naming bugs too. I'm assuming they're in the original scenario and there's nothing much I can do about them. I could go into the Estab editor and correct them, I suppose, but I haven't tried anything with the Estab editor yet.
6. I changed the stats for a few Bns - the 505th and 2 para, I think - just for fun - so you could check and see whether having more men and materiel and better stats made any significant diff in performance.

Many thanks for the feedback!

[skarp]

cheers phoenix. I'm sure I'll win. I've claimed 'victory' in the historical version in that I've had XXX Corps across the Waal on day 3 with both airborne div intact and a 1 to 4 casualty ration in my favour which I've abandoned for now...

anyway
1. Most are stuck on the other side so i think it's just the one
2. I only spotted this because the arty has run out of ammo for some hours and no resupply requests have been made. I ran forward to see what happened and the British arty ends up attached to 82nd div base.
3. I've now looked at axis reinforcements and yep they're scheduled for Elst
4 & 5 fair enough. I thought that might be the case.
6 Can't say I had but I had noticed that the axis RAD coys are extremely tough - one hadn't suffered a single casualty in hours despite being surrounded and closely pressed. Likewise I've seen a bn hq hold off two para companies for hours. There's a thread about this somewhere.

Thanks again for all your efforts

[skarp]

Just read the unit history for the 3/327 - turns out 401 is right. The arrangement began in Normandy.

[Phoenix100]

Re point 2 - I've found that if the orders you give to a unit expire and you forget about the unit then after a while they seem to come under the command of a higher unit (because they've no orders, I guess), and in this scenario that unit might be a base in Nijmegan when they're in Arnhem, and vice versa. Can lead to very odd pathing attempts as their new superior gives them orders to bring them closer to itself - like up over the Waal bridges and on to Arnhem on day 1!!!

[Phoenix100]

You've done way better than me getting the 82nd across the Waal on day 3, in the original, Skarp. Best I've managed is late day 4, and then there's been another day of fighting before they could head off for Arnhem (by which time everyone up there can't get supply and the surrenders are starting). And then the attacks on your flanks start!

[Phoenix100]

Can you post some screens of your situation, Skarp? Would love to see how it looks to have them all pocketed up.

[skarp]

Here's the Oosterbeek pocket on your scenario

[skarp]

and over at velp - no pocket but he ain't going anywhere fast

[skarp]

a sneaky surrender to check casualties

Note 2/3rds of my casualties - 2414 are the result of accidents - presumably the crowded drops onto unsuitable terrain?

So as far as engagements go that's 1200 Allies lost to 5300 Axis

[skarp]

I let the historical game I thought I would win play itself onto day 6 - here's a screenshot of the casualties. I think you can see why I regard it as won.

[Phoenix100]

I see that yes. It looks like it's won. Interestingly, if you change the Vic conditions for both sides, so as to make you get full points for doing exactly what you've done (and what you would think would have been the historical objectives) - kill the enemy and seize the major bridges, then that, I think, makes it much harder (on a roughly historical scenario) as it allows the Axis to concentrate on the bridgeheads.


Lol. I love the Oosterbeek 'pocket'.

The accidents figure is intriguing. It's staggeringly high. I would need Dave to tell me it was due to overcrowded drops on bad terrain, because I'm not sure that's modelled. Hats off to him if it is, but then the terrain (polder) was ok to drop both gliders and paras on during the actual battle (the Poles, the 504th etc) it was just the planners decided they couldn't drop them on that polder near the targets (until they dropped the Poles there).

[skarp]

Actually despite the Victory conditions the Axis AI does concentrate on the bridges. It's the determination the AI has to reach these that lures the enemy into the traps I set - especially at Nijmegen where discretion should have called the attack off when it was clear I had the firepower to oppose any crossing. I've tried to repeat the defence of the southern end of Nijmegen but have had difficulties with lack of supply I didn't have on that occasion. I've managed it a couple of times but keep thinking I can do better. The reason the AI may look like it hasn't concentrated is the fact I've made it difficult to do so by placing roadblocks as far out as possible to disrupt the reinforcement's movement to the bridges. This is key to my strategy to do as much fighting as far away from my objectives as possible. The inspiration came from the weakness of the initial landing zones. If on day one I have to march many km to reach the key locations on day 2 it's the Axis that has this problem and I'm determined to make them suffer.

Re accidents - I was shocked myself but given the locations and density of the drops it does make sense. Flooded polder can be lethal to heavily laden soldiers that fall into it. It may also reflect the enemy fire on paras dropping close to AA defences.

Re alternative market gardens - did you know the original RDOA had a whole bunch - including a double drop of 1st airborne and a Delen option to capture the airfield and airlift a infantry division onto it?

[Phoenix100]

Great tactics, Skarp. Love it. [&o]That's what I've been finding too - keep as many diversions from the bridgeheads as possible.

The accidents figure would be fine - and yet further testimony to how great this game is (in a way - I'd still have to query the number because, as I said, in history, they did drop onto polder and did not suffer anything like those casualty figures, I think) - if it were true that things were deliberately modelled that way - but I'm not sure they are. Do you know whether the AI is actually capable of determining a number of accidents from drops onto polder and then multiplying that because of overcrowding etc? I worry it's a bug instead.

Alternative scenarios. Yes, I played all the RDOA games and was disappointed those scenarios weren't converted too. So I started making my own variations. I have many. The one you're playing is the most outrageous, obviously. Myself I prefer those that tamper just a little with the variables.