Tracker says Sara sunk

[Sieppo]

I got two lucky sub torpedo hits on the Saratoga near Ocean Island. I only remember "critical damage" in the movie but nothing special mentioned on the report, just two hits. I knew she must have limped away to Oz or PH.

Now four days later I get the tracker reporting she has sunk 8/18/42 151,125 near Howland Island (about half way from Ocean Island to PH, no ships of mine anywhere near). Could be possible, the range would fit for 3-4 turns travelled, but I doubt two torpedoes would sink a very big CV. Of course really hoping so [:D] .. My PBEM partner stopped playing for several weeks before this turn, could be the reason .

I don't find this data on any of the report files. Could it be a plane spotting (I think I have a patrol arc over that hex, cannot check now) the "sinking"? Where does the tracker take this possible false recon info from the game? I have several other ".. is reported to have been sunk" mentions on the reports from this turn, possibly reported by the subs hitting the ships. No recon data on the Saratoga during these four days in the report files or any files, just this one now.

[Walloc]

Its possible, but i wouldnt count on it.

[Sieppo]

Probably yes. I'm just wondering and the question is, why does this show up on the tracker? Where in the game is this info found with the source of the info as no report files show this?

[Sieppo]

I've had false reports on ships being sunk on the turn they got hit, not twenty some hexes away in the middle of the ocean four turns later .

[Itdepends]

Did you get any op's losses for carrier fighters/divebombers/torpedo bombers?

[Sieppo]

Checked for it of course right away after I saw it. None to mention but I think my opponent would have removed the planes from the CV returning to repair to support his continuing operations near Ocean Island.

Edit: of course this would have left the CV without protection, so unlikely yes (if it was not air-inoperable, in which case he would have not got the planes of the carrier in the first place)

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Probably yes. I'm just wondering and the question is, why does this show up on the tracker? Where in the game is this info found with the source of the info as no report files show this?

Its in the ops file tho i've some times noticed it only on tracker too, i cant tell u why. Other than it might check sunk list vs sunk list for previous turn when loading the turn and notice the difference and then insert the info into the alert list.

I have seen cases of sunk at later dates than hits that wasnt correct, actually it happens alot in my experience.

Rasmus

[Lokasenna]

I look for changes in the in-game list more than in Tracker. Most times, Tracker's sunk ships list is even more wrong than the in-game FOW list.

For the record, I've had Lex sink from a single torpedo hit before. Early war near the Gilberts, AI sub blew up the ammo or something. 30+ sys damage from the hit, plus 40-some major float and fires at mid-60s to start with. Burned for 3 days.

Kind of historical, really.

[Sieppo]

Sunk by ammo storage explosion I would have believed too. Just did not happen this time .

[Sieppo]

BTW what does "critical damage" even mean, when it does not mean heavy damage or even fires etc that is mentioned in the report?

Edit: the manual answers: "Ships may suffer Critical Hits, which cause more damage than normal hits. There is also a
small chance that every Critical Hit endured by a ship will cause its immediate destruction."

[HexHead]

WW2 CVs were not armored to the same degree as surface heavies. Their main protection against subs was speed and escorts.

A CV is chock full of HE and avgas, not to mention their own fuel. A CV is a floating bomb waiting for ignition. One torpedo in the right spot could sink one; most skippers would fire at least two in a salvo.

USN DC procedures mitigated this risk, but did not eliminate it.

[floydg]

WitPTraker reads the information from the save file. There is information about the ship being sunk and also some "fog of war" information in there (like that it was falsely reported sunk; that it wasn't sunk, but some other ship of the same class was sunk; and this ship was sunk but another was reported as being sunk). These false reports have some "delay" factor (how long it will be reported falsely). At some point, things clear up and WitPTracker does generate alerts about false reports (and so does the Operations Report).

If WitPTracker shows the ship as sunk but the game doesn't (in the Sunk Ships list), then it could be a problem. Can you check the game?

[Lokasenna]

Mostly I've noticed that the ship names in Tracker are even "worse" than in-game. I'll see "CL Mauritius reported sunk" in the in-game ops report when I got hits on CL Leander, for example, and Tracker will tell me it was CL Detroit. And sunk by unknown device, according to Tracker. Weird stuff.

[floydg]

Let me know if you have specific examples where the in-game info differs from what WitPTracker shows so that I can check it out.

[Sieppo]

ORIGINAL: floydg

If WitPTracker shows the ship as sunk but the game doesn't (in the Sunk Ships list), then it could be a problem. Can you check the game?

I'll check once it's my turn again, maybe tomorrow!

[geofflambert]

There's no ship ever built that a single "long-lance" couldn't sink (in theory) but most CV's were not particularly hard to sink. Most of them were built on cruiser hulls and were easier even than them to sink because of their mass and volatility along with not that much armor. BB's were always the hardest ships to sink and you shouldn't ever imagine any CV (other than Taiho, and maybe give some consideration for Shokaku/Zuikaku) was in a similar league as far as difficulty to sink. A single 250 lb bomb could sink a CV depending on circumstances; the same is not true for any BB.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: floydg

Let me know if you have specific examples where the in-game info differs from what WitPTracker shows so that I can check it out.

With regards to enemy ship sinkings, Tracker is very often one turn ahead of the game. I'm going from memory, but I do not think this applies for ships sunk and acknowledged sunk in the same turn. But for ships confirmed or acknowledged sunk sometime after the turn of the sinking, Tracker is - I think - always one turn ahead of the in-game ships sunk list.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

There's no ship ever built that a single "long-lance" couldn't sink (in theory) but most CV's were not particularly hard to sink. Most of them were built on cruiser hulls and were easier even than them to sink because of their mass and volatility along with not that much armor. BB's were always the hardest ships to sink and you shouldn't ever imagine any CV (other than Taiho, and maybe give some consideration for Shokaku/Zuikaku) was in a similar league as far as difficulty to sink. A single 250 lb bomb could sink a CV depending on circumstances; the same is not true for any BB.

I've always been impressed with the punishment the Shokaku class took IRL. I'm not convinced the game stats models that, but I guess CA-comparable Belt/Deck armor values is OK.

It's also mind boggling to me why Japan built Unryus and not just more Shokakus. There has to be a rational reason (treaty limits? shortage of materials? what?) - does anybody know?

[bbbf]

Expense.

Where the US settled on Essex as a standard design, the limited Japanese economy could only produce a limited number of a far more limited ship.

Don't go toe to toe with an industrial behemoth.

[Feltan]

Not sure if you noticed, but I try to take note of aircraft losses when I suspect a carrier may have been sunk. The daily intelligence report often shows an outsized operational or ground loss when a carrier goes under with its air wings.

Regards,
Feltan