Aircraft Research - How much is too much?

[johnbmac]

I've read every thread i can about research but i didn't see anything about a limit to the total.

It appears that in Scen. 2 Japan has 79 factories researching aircraft. If the best research techniques involve using 6 factories at 30 a/c each it would seem possible to hastily research 13 or 14 a/c types at 180 or so each. But that might take over 200,000 supply points to repair the factories. What's a realistic limit to research?

My initial focus might be:
Zeros
Tojos
Jacks
Georges
Franks
Oscars?
Judys?
Graces?
Frances?
Helens?

Any suggestions.

[Mike Solli]

Keep in mind that R&D factories repair very slowly until they get within a couple of months of completing that model. So, the supply outlay is spread out over many months.

[johnbmac]

wow, was kinda wishing mike soli would reply, whoda thunk it would be so soon, what a great forum! you guys are the best

thanks mike

so, do you think i can just go for it all, subject to change as the games goes along, like everything else?

[Numdydar]

You should check out my Japanese Production primer for the details on R&D. The only realistic way for Japan to accelerate AC is to 'daisy chain' models Zero 3a to Zero M5, etc. R&D is in the last section tm.asp?m=3329605

Also you REALLY have no where near the HI for doing what you suggest as Japan's econemy is much stronger in Scenerio 2, especially the Pilot pool. This will use up a LOT of HI. Not to mention wanting to use HI to accelerate CVs.

It can take up to a year for R&D factories to fully repair. And only fully repaired R&D factories provide R&D 'points' toward acceleration. As Mike pointed out, the repair rate for R&D is NOT 1/month for AC like engines or production. Any AC with an over two years availability from the current game date has an extremely low chance of repair. Even R&D factories withing 1-2 months of availability will still not repair at 1/month, but will still repair faster than ones further out.

Look at the guide and it will help even further [:)]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: johnbmac

I've read every thread i can about research but i didn't see anything about a limit to the total.

It appears that in Scen. 2 Japan has 79 factories researching aircraft. If the best research techniques involve using 6 factories at 30 a/c each it would seem possible to hastily research 13 or 14 a/c types at 180 or so each. But that might take over 200,000 supply points to repair the factories. What's a realistic limit to research?

My initial focus might be:
Zeros
Tojos
Jacks
Georges
Franks
Oscars?
Judys?
Graces?
Frances?
Helens?

Any suggestions.

You forgot Jills. [:D]

I accelerate all of these airframes you've listed here (plus the Jills) in some capacity or the other. Numydar is right about 'daisy chaining' research on earlier models. Also, don't forget the importance of accelerating the appropriate engine production. Once you get >500 in the pool, that will effectively double your research in that line. It's a pretty sweet bonus.

[Numdydar]

But that is hard to do in Scenerio 2 as there are more planes being produced and increased number of Squadrons to keep filled. In my Scenerio 2 game, the only engine I had over 500 was the AH-60.

It was the old chicken and egg thing. I needed more planes so incresed production, needed more engines, so made more engines. When my losses increased, needed more planes, so cycle repeats lol.

PDU Off versus On has a major impact as well. I found it is much easier to have 500 engine pools with PDU Off than On since you are restricted in what squadrons can upgrade to what and when with PDU Off. If it is On then you have a lot more Zeros than historically so need a lot more engines.

[Mike Solli]

I've never played scenario 2. If you're interested, I'll go over my R&D plans in my AAR (prying eyes here). Keep in mind, scenario 1 is very different from scenario 2.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

But that is hard to do in Scenerio 2 as there are more planes being produced and increased number of Squadrons to keep filled. In my Scenerio 2 game, the only engine I had over 500 was the AH-60.

It was the old chicken and egg thing. I needed more planes so incresed production, needed more engines, so made more engines. When my losses increased, needed more planes, so cycle repeats lol.

PDU Off versus On has a major impact as well. I found it is much easier to have 500 engine pools with PDU Off than On since you are restricted in what squadrons can upgrade to what and when with PDU Off. If it is On then you have a lot more Zeros than historically so need a lot more engines.

Well, it's difficult to get the >500 engine research bonus in ALL engine types-and probably not necessary. You should be able to target your most prolific fighter engine type (e.g., the Ha-35 for the A6 lineage) to get that above 500 too. Note in scenario 2, that the Tojo, Oscar and Zeroes use the Ha-35 lines. That's a fine candidate for maximum engine production that also benefits the research of all Ha-35 lineages too. [:)]

[Quixote]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

But that is hard to do in Scenerio 2 as there are more planes being produced and increased number of Squadrons to keep filled. In my Scenerio 2 game, the only engine I had over 500 was the AH-60.

It was the old chicken and egg thing. I needed more planes so incresed production, needed more engines, so made more engines. When my losses increased, needed more planes, so cycle repeats lol.

PDU Off versus On has a major impact as well. I found it is much easier to have 500 engine pools with PDU Off than On since you are restricted in what squadrons can upgrade to what and when with PDU Off. If it is On then you have a lot more Zeros than historically so need a lot more engines.

Well, it's difficult to get the >500 engine research bonus in ALL engine types-and probably not necessary. You should be able to target your most prolific fighter engine type (e.g., the Ha-35 for the A6 lineage) to get that above 500 too. Note in scenario 2, that the Tojo, Oscar and Zeroes use the Ha-35 lines. That's a fine candidate for maximum engine production that also benefits the research of all Ha-35 lineages too. [:)]

I find Scenario 2 to be ridiculously easier to achieve an R&D bonus in than Scenario 1. You have so many extra planes and groups in Scenario 2 to start with that even if you don't use half of what you're given you'll still steamroll the Allies for the first few months. Limit production from the start of the game (with almost no adverse consequences) and you'll get the engine bonus on anything you want. Cannonfodder will probably read this (alas!), but in our PBEM Japan got the bonus for Nakajima 35's within the first 45 days of the game. The Mit 32 bonus came on line the following month. If it's possible to get both of these bonuses within the first 60 days of play without a ton of manipulation, there's really not much mystery to it.

[Numdydar]

That is what I love about the forum here, people share things you never thought of lol.

Thanks Quixote for your thoughts. I not once thought about NOT filling up all my Squadrons with the latest planes in order to keep 500 engines in the pool [:(]. I wanted all my squadrons to have the best planes as soon as they could and only until much later in the game did I realize I was not using them all anyway [:(]. So it would have been much better to allow my engine pools build up first like you suggest versus what I did. This is now on my 'things to do' for the next time [:)]

[Lokasenna]

My list of absolutely necessary, ASAP:

Tojo - Oscar is OK, but not great. You need the up-gunned Tojo.
Judy - the Val is very obsolete at war's start. You need the Judy. I build 500 Aichi-60 engines for the R&D bonus, and then build that out as D4Y2's once I begin research on the Y3 (which uses the Ha-33). My plan is to use the 500 D4Y2s until I unlock the D4Y4, which carries an 800kg payload. The Y2's are still pretty fast, so when you upgrade to the Y4 you can use these as kamis, carrying 500kg bombs.

Other must-haves, but not as urgent:
A6M5
Helen IIa/IIb
Frank and George (only in this category because you can't research them as well at the start)
Jill

Nice to have:
Jack
Oscar-IV
Grace

Don't need to research, just let them arrive on schedule:
B6N2a (only difference is radar, not available until 11/44 anyway)
G4M2 and beyond
Frances, Peggy (your Helens and Netties are fine until the historical arrival dates here)

This is all IMHO, and assuming PDU ON.
After this, it's really a matter of personal style and choosing which that arrive

[koniu]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

My list of absolutely necessary, ASAP:

Tojo - Oscar is OK, but not great. You need the up-gunned Tojo.
Judy - the Val is very obsolete at war's start. You need the Judy. I build 500 Aichi-60 engines for the R&D bonus, and then build that out as D4Y2's once I begin research on the Y3 (which uses the Ha-33). My plan is to use the 500 D4Y2s until I unlock the D4Y4, which carries an 800kg payload. The Y2's are still pretty fast, so when you upgrade to the Y4 you can use these as kamis, carrying 500kg bombs.

Other must-haves, but not as urgent:
A6M5
Helen IIa/IIb
Frank and George (only in this category because you can't research them as well at the start)
Jill

Nice to have:
Jack
Oscar-IV
Grace

Don't need to research, just let them arrive on schedule:
B6N2a (only difference is radar, not available until 11/44 anyway)
G4M2 and beyond
Frances, Peggy (your Helens and Netties are fine until the historical arrival dates here)

This is all IMHO, and assuming PDU ON.
After this, it's really a matter of personal style and choosing which that arrive

I will add to must have category
Ki-67(T) Peggy .I will commits some decent numbers of factories to that.
A7M2 Sam. Best Japanese navy late war fighter in war. Fast, CV capable, SR2
Also Ki-49IIb no need to accelerate. Only gives some defensive fire with minimal impact to plane survivability against enemy CAP.


Also remember that if You plan to build some secondary models later in war You actually can commit one or two R&D factories to that plane. You have chance to accelerate that plane by month or more and when plane become available You will already have repaired factory.

Another thing engine bonus is nice as it double R&D points when You have over 500 engines in pool. But nothing is for free. For every extra point from bonus one engine is consumed

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

My list of absolutely necessary, ASAP:

Tojo - Oscar is OK, but not great. You need the up-gunned Tojo.
Judy - the Val is very obsolete at war's start. You need the Judy. I build 500 Aichi-60 engines for the R&D bonus, and then build that out as D4Y2's once I begin research on the Y3 (which uses the Ha-33). My plan is to use the 500 D4Y2s until I unlock the D4Y4, which carries an 800kg payload. The Y2's are still pretty fast, so when you upgrade to the Y4 you can use these as kamis, carrying 500kg bombs.

Other must-haves, but not as urgent:
A6M5
Helen IIa/IIb
Frank and George (only in this category because you can't research them as well at the start)
Jill

Nice to have:
Jack
Oscar-IV
Grace

Don't need to research, just let them arrive on schedule:
B6N2a (only difference is radar, not available until 11/44 anyway)
G4M2 and beyond
Frances, Peggy (your Helens and Netties are fine until the historical arrival dates here)

This is all IMHO, and assuming PDU ON.
After this, it's really a matter of personal style and choosing which that arrive

Imho the P1Y1 is a MUST have plane. It used the Ha-45 engine (easy to get it above 500). it's fast and armoured and it's ages Beyond the Betty or the Nell in performances. I'd heavily R&D it.

The J2M is also a must have. You need the J2M line ASAP... consider that the J2M5 is the only 3rd generation fighter that uses the Ha-32 engine...

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

My list of absolutely necessary, ASAP:

Tojo - Oscar is OK, but not great. You need the up-gunned Tojo.
Judy - the Val is very obsolete at war's start. You need the Judy. I build 500 Aichi-60 engines for the R&D bonus, and then build that out as D4Y2's once I begin research on the Y3 (which uses the Ha-33). My plan is to use the 500 D4Y2s until I unlock the D4Y4, which carries an 800kg payload. The Y2's are still pretty fast, so when you upgrade to the Y4 you can use these as kamis, carrying 500kg bombs.

Other must-haves, but not as urgent:
A6M5
Helen IIa/IIb
Frank and George (only in this category because you can't research them as well at the start)
Jill

Nice to have:
Jack
Oscar-IV
Grace

Don't need to research, just let them arrive on schedule:
B6N2a (only difference is radar, not available until 11/44 anyway)
G4M2 and beyond
Frances, Peggy (your Helens and Netties are fine until the historical arrival dates here)

This is all IMHO, and assuming PDU ON.
After this, it's really a matter of personal style and choosing which that arrive

Imho the P1Y1 is a MUST have plane. It used the Ha-45 engine (easy to get it above 500). it's fast and armoured and it's ages Beyond the Betty or the Nell in performances. I'd heavily R&D it.

The J2M is also a must have. You need the J2M line ASAP... consider that the J2M5 is the only 3rd generation fighter that uses the Ha-32 engine...

I was trying to make the point that must-have and must-R&D are not the same thing. I think a lot of models you can just wait for the availability date. Having an R&D factory for the model does allow you to have a fully repaired factory on Day 1 of production, though.

I'm not sold on needing the Jack early, but I'm willing to make the IJAAF do most of the CAP duties. You are correct about the Ha-32 point, which is a good one as you'll no longer be producing Netties much/at all by then...

[PaxMondo]

Just a caveat here to the OP: watch your supply expenditure. If you read several IJ AAR's right now that are in the '44 timeframe, they are desparately short of supply. [:-][:-][:-]

You have to watch your economic expansion and be sure you can afford it. This varies scenario to scenario, mod to mod. You have to be sure which ever you play, that your economic plan will work within it. Overexpand and you can (and will) crash your economy before '45. The allies will win without ever having to try as your LCU's will fold without supply.

[btbw]

My R&D plan on start Scen 2:
A6M2-N x3 (convert to A6M3a when repared, after receiving A6M3a - convert to A6M5)
A6M3 x4 (convert to A6M5 when repared, after receiving A6M5 all factories go into Free R&D)
A6M5d-S x2
A7M2 x7
B6N1 x4 (after repairing convert to B6N2, after receiving B6N2 - convert to B6N2a)
B7A2 x4
D4Y1 x4 (after receiving D4Y1 convert to D4Y3, after receiving D4Y3 - convert to D4Y4 for kamikaze)
H8K1 x3 (after reparing convert to H8K2, after receiving H8K2 - Free R&D)
J7W1 x6
Ki-44 x5 (repair and convert to Ki-44c, after receiving Ki-44c - Free R&D)
KI-46-3kai x3
Ki-49-1a x3 (repair and convert to Ki-49-2a, then research and covert to Ki-49-2b)
Ki-67 (T) x3
Ki-67-1a x3 (repair and convert to Ki-67-1b
Ki-83 x6
Ki-84a x8 (research and convert to K-84r)
N1K1-J x8 (research and convert to N1K2-J, then N1K5-J)
P1Y1 x4 (research and convert to P1Y2)
Free R&D will spent on closest needed planes. For example i will research Ki-43 line and when A6M5 factories become to free r&d i will convert 1 of them to closest model (about 2 month to available), repair to Ki-43-3a). Same for J2M2, Ki-100 etc.

[SenToku]

My R&D and production system is based mostly on strategic and operative values, with tactical considerations left to third place in importance. This means that plane types engines and service rating and time you get use from plane type (before being obselete or replaced with superior model) are more important to me than actual numerical values of type itself (which are not ignored, of course).

R&D at 6/42;
IJN:
A6M5, B6N1, D4Y1, N1K1-J, P1Y1
IJA:
Ki-43-IIb, Ki-61-Ia, Ki-67-Ia, Ki-84a

1/43;
IJN:
A6M5c, B6N2, D4Y3, N1K1-J, P1Y1
IJA:
Ki-67-Ia, Ki-84a, Ki-100-I

6/43;
IJN:
A7M2, B6N2a, D4Y4, N1K2-J, P1Y2
IJA:
Ki-84r, Ki-100-I(II), Ki-115a

I have noticed that predictions or plans extending after 6/43 will usually fall appart, so I leave planning to 43 only. R&D is concentrated to few models, which I concider vital (mainly bombers and fighters). Not all of these go to production, like Ki-61 or B6N1 and there are a lot of models that go into production, but aren't researched at all (why preform R&D for a transport?). I also don't think Japanese player will lose the war, if he gets H8K2 2-4 months later, thus recons, float-planes and patrols can use older models until the "natural" arrival date. Only D4Y1-C is close of being an expection, but need to R&D the engine and then over build it to get 500 pool has dropped that one from my R&D plan.

Kami models are researched (D4Y4 and Ki-115 are in plan) as Kamikaze is fearsome weapon for Japanese player and should NOT be preformed in some plane found in "the corner of the pool". Proper models for that job are the ones with 800kg bomb and decent pool numbers of those are in my mind essential by 1944.

Especially in Scen 2 the R&D numbers for the models are large and essential planes will arrive quickly. After the "1st Stage", end of 1943, every important bomber and fighter will be in service and R&D is freed to either go into production or start "super-plane" projects for the end-game, like Ki-74-I, Ki-94-II, S1A1 and such. This Last Stage R&D has little value for the game as whole, but might produce few surprises for the opponent (Ki-74 especially has some awesome possibilities built into it).

Some notes;
Production wise I divide the game into stage 1 and stage 2. Offence and defence. Offence production discards the Interceptor (defensive fighter) in favor of Air Superiority Fighter plane (Ki-43 vs. Ki-44). Stage two switches the roles (Ki-100 vs. Ki-43) and also drops the bomber production in favour of fighters.

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: Quixote
Cannonfodder will probably read this (alas!), but in our PBEM Japan got the bonus for Nakajima 35's within the first 45 days of the game. The Mit 32 bonus came on line the following month. If it's possible to get both of these bonuses within the first 60 days of play without a ton of manipulation, there's really not much mystery to it.

Two words... Nuclear Weapons

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: SenToku

My R&D and production system is based mostly on strategic and operative values, with tactical considerations left to third place in importance. This means that plane types engines and service rating and time you get use from plane type (before being obselete or replaced with superior model) are more important to me than actual numerical values of type itself (which are not ignored, of course).

R&D at 6/42;
IJN:
A6M5, B6N1, D4Y1, N1K1-J, P1Y1
IJA:
Ki-43-IIb, Ki-61-Ia, Ki-67-Ia, Ki-84a

1/43;
IJN:
A6M5c, B6N2, D4Y3, N1K1-J, P1Y1
IJA:
Ki-67-Ia, Ki-84a, Ki-100-I

6/43;
IJN:
A7M2, B6N2a, D4Y4, N1K2-J, P1Y2
IJA:
Ki-84r, Ki-100-I(II), Ki-115a

I have noticed that predictions or plans extending after 6/43 will usually fall appart, so I leave planning to 43 only. R&D is concentrated to few models, which I concider vital (mainly bombers and fighters). Not all of these go to production, like Ki-61 or B6N1 and there are a lot of models that go into production, but aren't researched at all (why preform R&D for a transport?). I also don't think Japanese player will lose the war, if he gets H8K2 2-4 months later, thus recons, float-planes and patrols can use older models until the "natural" arrival date. Only D4Y1-C is close of being an expection, but need to R&D the engine and then over build it to get 500 pool has dropped that one from my R&D plan.

Kami models are researched (D4Y4 and Ki-115 are in plan) as Kamikaze is fearsome weapon for Japanese player and should NOT be preformed in some plane found in "the corner of the pool". Proper models for that job are the ones with 800kg bomb and decent pool numbers of those are in my mind essential by 1944.

Especially in Scen 2 the R&D numbers for the models are large and essential planes will arrive quickly. After the "1st Stage", end of 1943, every important bomber and fighter will be in service and R&D is freed to either go into production or start "super-plane" projects for the end-game, like Ki-74-I, Ki-94-II, S1A1 and such. This Last Stage R&D has little value for the game as whole, but might produce few surprises for the opponent (Ki-74 especially has some awesome possibilities built into it).

Some notes;
Production wise I divide the game into stage 1 and stage 2. Offence and defence. Offence production discards the Interceptor (defensive fighter) in favor of Air Superiority Fighter plane (Ki-43 vs. Ki-44). Stage two switches the roles (Ki-100 vs. Ki-43) and also drops the bomber production in favour of fighters.

I would like to point out, again, that the only difference between B6N2 and B6N2a is radar. And the B6N2a's radar will not activate until 11/44 regardless of the arrival date of the B6N2a, if my understanding of devices is correct (you can't speed them up). So while it might be worthwhile to research the 2a so that it arrives prior to 11/44 and you have a pool of them built up, there is otherwise no real benefit to researching it earlier than 9/44 or 10/44.

I think it's fine to use "corners of the pools" airframes for kamis. They aren't ideal, but if you're going to have the airframes sitting around anyway... Look at it this way: you've already spent the HI to produce those planes. May as well get some return on that investment, even if it's just eating up CAP ops points, right?

Also, the Oscar-IVs and such with their decent speed and 2x250kg bombs are still good kamis. Nates, on the other hand...if you're using them as kamis you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, but you're probably in 1946 by then, right? So you won anyway!

[Commander Stormwolf]

want to point out that B6N Jill (Tenzan) was already researched by 1941
it's engine didn't work

want to point out that B7A Ryusei (Grace) was already researched by 1941
it's engine didn't work

AC research is ridiculous

R&D is a process that is basically a roulette wheel - try out many different designs
and hope some of the them come out well (and hope the engines planned are available in time)