Fleets meeting in mid ocean

[Fred98]

I am aware that in UV the hexes are 30 miles across (50 kilometers) and that in this game the hexes will be 50 miles across (80 kilometers). But in UV it continues to irritate me that fleets pass each other and fail to engage.


Firstly; submarines;

I like to place submarines in choke points where they can intercept enemy fleets. The ocean is large and it is easy for a submarine to fail to spot an enemy fleet. Oh well that’s life!

But the game seems to be designed so that they can never meet unless they both have the same destination hex. This point is irritating. Do I have this correct? It means I have to place my subs in a enemy destination hex – and it is usually shallow.


Secondly; surface fleets

It is likely that both fleets have float planes patrolling. If visibility is good, a squadron of float planes should be able to recon a whole hex very quickly. And spot enemy fleets in the vicinity, including neighbouring hexes. Then I give the order to intercept.

But surface combat can only happen if both fleets have the same destination hex. And the middle of the ocean ain’t it.

I am aware that fleets meeting in mid ocean was rare, but what else can I do with my fighting ships?

These points are very frustrating for me.

[Piiska]

What is really annoying about this feature is that the system effectively prevents pursuit of damaged ships with surface task forces.

More than once my air attacks have left enemy carriers and their escorts crippled, trying to limb back to safe waters, while I’m trying to pursue them with a detachment of a fast surface ships.

Nothing gets you spirits up like the possibility of being able to catch a damaged carrier with a good CA taskforce of yours; however, as it is now, the damaged price beauties always succeed in escaping, since it is sheer luck if you can guess which hex they are at the end of the turn.

It would stand to reason that a detachment of fast cruisers with a speed of 30 would have easy job spotting the burning carriers with their float planes, and then use 10-20 knots speed advantage to catch the bugger. You can’t do this in the game, which is a real shame.

Instead, you just end up losing your marbles when having chased the same crippled carrier for four days, placing your taskforce one or two hexes either ahead or behind it and watching it slowly but surely reaching the air cover of its home waters. Eventually you just give up the idea of trying to chase cripples and thus one exiting aspect of naval warfare is lost.

Would it be possible to implement the ‘follow task force’ to enemy taskforces as well? I doubt there are any technical barriers, but are there some other considerations why it cannot be done? Is there a particular reason why one cannot pursue enemy taskforces? Is this one of those tactical/strategic game scope thingies that “as an operational level commander you don’t give orders to captains to pursue individual ships”?

I feel this is a bit silly, especially as the “tactical level AI” making the “react” calls, doesn’t have the ability to send detachments to follow damaged ships. Not even when the ship is a carrier.

If the game scope of one turn/one week is going to work properly, the taskforce commanders must have the intelligence to send detachments to pursuit missions independently. Furthermore, the pursuit taskforces must have the possibility to succeed, without circling around the target for a week before finally guessing the hex the enemy is at the end of the turn. In my belief, broadening of the ‘follow task force’ command to include enemy task forces would be the most rational solution.

[Admiral DadMan]

Originally posted by Joe 98
I am aware that in UV the hexes are 30 miles across (50 kilometers) and that in this game the hexes will be 50 miles across (80 kilometers). But in UV it continues to irritate me that fleets pass each other and fail to engage.

Acutally, the mechanism is if both opposing units are in the same hex at the end of a 12 impulse. You could have a mid ocean interception if you could determine where your force/sub would have to be to meet the other TF to engage it.

[showboat1]

That sucks. Though a mid ocean battle was rare it was possible and should be so in the game.

[Piiska]

It sucks indeed, however, there might be hope in the distant future.

I started a thread in the UV section dedicated to the very topic. If you want to have a look its titled: "follow enemy taskforce".

After a while Mike Wood, the lead programmer, gave a following answer

Good idea. Already on list with hundreds of other good ideas. If we can get to it, we will add it. Would be quite useful.

Have Fun...

Michael Wood
Lead Progammer,
Matrix Games

By the way, big thanks for the answer Michael

So perhaps such a feature will be included to WITP.

[mdiehl]

Though a mid ocean battle was rare it was possible and should be so in the game.

I always thought that apart from submarine contacts, the overwhelming majority, if not all, surface combat naval battles occurred in the context of invasions or supply /reinforcement/bombardment missions, hence near land. The prospect of an USN or IJN CA TF making thirty knots to close a 50 mile gap between themselves and a wounded CV making, say, 15 knots, with the unkown potential for other enemy CVs or land based air to ruin your day, effectively limited most thoughts of pursuit, as at Midway.

I'd say the absence of meeting engagements in the middle of nowhere is no big deal.

[U2]

Originally posted by mdiehl


I'd say the absence of meeting engagements in the middle of nowhere is no big deal.

Hi

I agree with Mdiehl here. Sure I'd like a game with as many functions/options as possible but I'm not gonna care about not having meeting engagements in the middle of nowhere. The way UV takes care of this now is very good and as Mdiehl said it usually was near land (look at Leyte and Guadalcanal for example)

Very happy with how it is now.

Dan

[Sabre21]

Actually with the current sysytem you can't have a leyte or Guadacanal. There should be a chance for forces to meet as they did off Savo island for instance. The Japanese destination were the transports, they never got there. Same thing applies at Leyte, both battleship fleets encountered US forces prior to their destination.

I believe there needs to be some chance of encounter, especially if one side puts up a blockading fleet, such as Oldendorf did with the old battleships near Leyte. The Japanese were not going to get past that, but if the same rules applied as they do in the game, they would have been bypassed with no encounter.

Sabre21

[mdiehl]

Well, in PW Guadalcanal and Leyte were one hex destinations. You put your surface combat TF in the same location as your other surface combat TF, your invasion TF, your cargo-to-support post-invasion TF, your bombardment TF, and your PT boats. Enemy opposition occurred in the same location, and you'd take them on in mission sequence. The opposition can't just slip past your surface combat TF.

Maybe the problem is the scale of UV?

[NorthStar]

I think the only major problem with the system is that it prevents you from using submarines to blockade ports without actually being in them, or patrol choke points. It really annoys me that I can't park subs in that little channel (Bismark Straight??) between New Guinea and New Britain and catch transports as they come through.

As far as chasing cripples, I've had huge success as the allies hunting down crippled carriers with subs. Admitedly, you need to A) reduce the carrier's speed to one or two hexes, and B) have three subs or so. In cases like that, I have taken down probably 75% of the cripples.