CAP suggestions wanted

[Jim Stevens]

I wanted to solicit suggestions from the studio audience on how best to approach a problem that I am sure has been hashed over before but I can't find here.

In a single CV Air Combat task force I have been pondering how best to employ the fighter air asset when I have escort and CAP as their mission. It seems if I give the group maximum range the CAP may stray too far if there is anything that draws their attention away. If I set the range to zero as I would a group that is 100% dedicated to CAP that might hose the escort mission. Not knowing how the game would resolve the missions configured these two ways I thought I would see what the collective experience was with the veteran players here.

What do you vets think?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Jim Stevens

I wanted to solicit suggestions from the studio audience on how best to approach a problem that I am sure has been hashed over before but I can't find here.

In a single CV Air Combat task force I have been pondering how best to employ the fighter air asset when I have escort and CAP as their mission. It seems if I give the group maximum range the CAP may stray too far if there is anything that draws their attention away. If I set the range to zero as I would a group that is 100% dedicated to CAP that might hose the escort mission. Not knowing how the game would resolve the missions configured these two ways I thought I would see what the collective experience was with the veteran players here.

What do you vets think?

There isn't any "CAP mission." There's an Escort mission with CAP as a percentage setting. If you set Range to zero that's how far your Escort planes will go. The CAP percentage will stay over the carrier more or less regardless of the Range setting. (Air model mavens, this is your cue. [:)]) So set the Range wherever you think it needs to be for Escort.

[Numdydar]

Actually all fighter missions (execpt training) you can set the CAP percentage. This percentage will only protect the hex it is in. You may have one or two planes straggle into the surrounding hexs, but 99% of the CAP percentage will stay in the hex the TF or Base is in.

LR CAP is also a percentage and you can have both LR CAP, Escort, and CAP all at the same time. Any fighter will preform the mission selected, like Escort with the percentage of planes LEFT OVER from the percentages you set. So if you had a 10 plane fighter squardon and had 40% CAP, 20% LR CAP, 10% on Rest, and the mission set to escort, the following would occur

CAP - 4 fighters assigned
LR CAP - 2 fighters assigned
Rest - 1 fighter assigned (lucky stiff [:)])

The rest of the fighters would be assigned to fly escort which is 3.

Please note that I was careful to say the planes were just ASSIGNED to do these things. There is a whole lot of other conditions that have to be met for the planes to ACTUALLY fly, much less actually intercept anything [:)]. But generally speaking, if mutiple fighter squadrons are assined percentages to do these tasks, you will have planes in the air when the enemy comes calling.

[KenchiSulla]

In a multiple CV TF: If you have a squadron with elite pilots you absolutely want assigned to CAP (instead of getting butchered escorting aircraft) you could set range to 0 and CAP to the percentage you want and they would be dedicated to CAP duty.

Just assign other groups in the TF to escort duty by setting them at low percentages CAP.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

This percentage will only protect the hex it is in. You may have one or two planes straggle into the surrounding hexs, but 99% of the CAP percentage will stay in the hex the TF or Base is in.

Doesn't normal, non-LR CAP, extend out 3 hexes unless you set the range lower? The extension into the 3 hex CAP area is typically a fairly high percentage of the total CAP allotment and not just one or two planes.

[linrom]

I found out that when your primary mission is ESCORT, even when you set 100% of fighters to patrol duties, there are some planes that still fly escort? For example, 50% CAP and 50% REST. I still get a number of escorting planes, which is a large percentage in 9-10 sqn.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

This percentage will only protect the hex it is in. You may have one or two planes straggle into the surrounding hexs, but 99% of the CAP percentage will stay in the hex the TF or Base is in.

Doesn't normal, non-LR CAP, extend out 3 hexes unless you set the range lower? The extension into the 3 hex CAP area is typically a fairly high percentage of the total CAP allotment and not just one or two planes.

I've had it go out even farther than that, I think. It's a low number of planes, but they'll "react" to a raid out to their range setting, I think. I've used Escort with CAP on 70/30 and range 1 to cover both the CV/CVE force and the Amph TF I'm trying to cover with the same fighter squadrons, from one hex out from the target, without suffering the penalty for being in a coastal/base hex.

[Numdydar]

It can happen as it depends on the die rolls and the local commander's ability to override some of your orders [:)]

[Q-Ball]

I recommend mixing your CV squadrons

Keep some "Elite" ones; these are CAP-only. Set them to Zero Range, 80% or 90% CAP. They won't tire very fast at Zero range, particularly if they are Elite, so don't worry about the high percentage

Set the less experienced squadrons to "ESCORT" with the range you need to escort. You can mix in some CAP on them, depending on what you need.

You can also mix the A/C types, if you have a mix. For example, it's 1944 and I am using Corsairs for the "Elite" units, and lesser units like CVE fighters use Hellcats or Wildcats. It doesn't matter much if escorts are Wildcats.

Basic point is that Escorting fighters are going to die regardless of plane type or pilot quality, so you may as well make sure the guys dying are not your best ones

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

In a multiple CV TF: If you have a squadron with elite pilots you absolutely want assigned to CAP (instead of getting butchered escorting aircraft) you could set range to 0 and CAP to the percentage you want and they would be dedicated to CAP duty.

Just assign other groups in the TF to escort duty by setting them at low percentages CAP.

I think setting range to 0 might be a mistake. Effectiveness of CAP is based in part on spotting the enemy formation B4 it gets to your base. The farther away you can engage the enemy formation from your base, the more effective it will be.

From page 172 of the manual:
CAP may react to defend a target as far as 2 hexes away. To do so, the hex to be defended must be attacked by more aircraft then are defending the hex, and the hex the CAP is going to come from must be under attack by less aircraft than are currently flying CAP over that hex (checked for each air unit, one at a time).

Added:
So if you have 10 fighters in a group and assign 30% to CAP then only 1/3 of the assigned CAP will be in the air (1 plane). Note that the language says that to engage further away from the base your CAP must be greater in numbers than the attackers...

[HistoryGuy]

Agreed with avoiding setting CAP range to zero. Doesnt make sense tactically nor does it take advantage of radar and fighter direction (which I would assume WITP AE replicates because it does everything else so well).

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
It doesn't matter much if escorts are Wildcats.

Basic point is that Escorting fighters are going to die regardless of plane type or pilot quality, so you may as well make sure the guys dying are not your best ones

Q-Ball, but this is a very JFB POV - which is understandable considering your agenda. I hope you do not misunderstand my comment, it is not meant insulting in any way.

Allied high quality escort fighters can make the difference between a successful strike which makes the attack run nearly untouched and some stray bombs dropped by low moral remnants of the attacking planes.

Corsairs and Hellcats (or Tbolts or Mustangs FWIIW) have enough durability to often remain in battle after receiving damage, are seldom shot down in a single pass in general, and have a high chance to get a pilot home. I have often seen escorting fighters really hurt CAP if the escorts held slight numerical superiority, consisted of high quality aircraft and were flown by high def skill pilots.

Low quality escorts with low skill pilots in a similar situation has a much higher chance to fail. The escorts usually don´t kill much, but keep the CAP occupied for so long many fail to break through to the bombers.

As a sidenote, until the F4U-D arrives the Corsairs have a SR of 2, which makes them not the optimal choice for CAP in case you need it for extended time periods.
(They are near perfect sweepers though [;)])

[dr.hal]

I would like to comment on two points made here and then ask you all a question. First my experience says that if you are interested in defending a hex (base or CV) then put the CAP unit on 100%. It doesn't tire fast at all. The reason for this was indicated by 1EyedJacks, in that only 1/3 of them fly at any one time. Thus they don't really fly that much. Putting in a distance of hexes, even ONE hex really can tire them quickly. Second, you only need have them in your hex to be effective, it hurts cap to give them range. Why? Well in truth what you want is EARLY WARNING, not range. With the Mk 1 Eyeball, that's not easy. So usually there is little warning time for your other 2/3 group of fighters (remember only 1/3 is aloft) to get up and into the fight. Range will NOT help this reaction time alone, you need DETECTION range...that's why radar is so important. That's what will make your CAP effective, getting the other 2/3s up and into the fight in enough time to make a difference. It is impossible for aircraft aloft or eyeball ground observations to ring the alarm (except distant coast watcher, but that's another story) in time for aircraft to respond. You need air controllers and detection equipment. Remember a hex is 46 miles across, or 23 miles if you count the base in the middle (or TF) which is WELL beyond the range of an eyeball. So you need technology to help you out. Look for radar to give you that edge. Does this make sense?

As for the question, given that you have a LRCAP option I've often wondered; if you select that option and dedicate 50% of your fighters to it, and the hex is say three away from your base, do you put a "range" of ZERO or three? Remember that when you select LRCAP you are given the ability to put in a destination hex.... so if you put in one and it is three hexes away do you put a range in as three as well OR do the designated fighters travel to that hex as assigned by a destination and then because you put in a range of ZERO the fighters stray no further or do they need a range put in so that the can GET to the designated hex as well as being assigned to fly there (in this example I would have to put a three in the range box in order to give the 50% group enough space to fly to their designated hex)? I simply don't know which is needed. I believe I recall that if you designate LRCAP and DON'T put in a range but then select a destination, it AUTOMATICALLY fills in a range which reflects the number of hexes to that destination, but I"m not sure.

[Cpt Sherwood]

If you have a LRCAP mission with a target 1 or more hexes away and range set to 0, they will not fly. I found this out the hard way.

I just came back to this and realized I made a mistake in posting. This mission was a SWEEP mission, not LRCAP. I apologize for the mistake.

[dr.hal]

Yah, I kinda thought that would be the case.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

If you have a LRCAP mission with a target 1 or more hexes away and range set to 0, they will not fly. I found this out the hard way.

It shouldn't work that way - at least from what I read in the manual:

Page 154 - the bottom of:
The Maximum Range sets the maximum range in hexes that the squadron will travel in order
to reach the target. The air unit will not exceed this distance when picking a target using
Commander’s Discretion whether the target is for a strike Mission, escort, or Long-range CAP.
However, if the air unit is assigned a specific target (base or TF), then the air unit will ignore
this max range setting.

[dr.hal]

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

However, if the air unit is assigned a specific target (base or TF), then the air unit will ignore
this max range setting.

This could mean that if the unit's max range is set to be greater than the target hex, it would stop at the target hex. The converse might NOT be true, if the max range is LESS than the target hex, it might not GO to the target hex!

[Jim Stevens]

So it's not so clear cut at all! Do the programmers ever weigh in on these questions? Or are they long gone?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Jim Stevens

So it's not so clear cut at all! Do the programmers ever weigh in on these questions? Or are they long gone?

Hey! I want credit for being the first to answer and attempting to keep it simple.[:)]

Some of the devs are still around, but are mostly involved in mods. Michael M. is the only one actively coding beta patches, on his own time. He is beloved by all. See the Tech sub-forum for his threads and the beta patches.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

However, if the air unit is assigned a specific target (base or TF), then the air unit will ignore
this max range setting.

This could mean that if the unit's max range is set to be greater than the target hex, it would stop at the target hex. The converse might NOT be true, if the max range is LESS than the target hex, it might not GO to the target hex!

I don't think it could mean that...

Let's look at a Nate squadron as an example. Using drop tanks the Normal range is 6 and Extended range is 8.

Let's say you want to fly escort missions but you don't want to stress out your pilots with fatigue so you set the Maximum range to 6. If you don't select a target then, at the Commander's Discretion, it can escort any bombing missions out to a range of 6.

Two turns later you wanna bomb Chungking. You select Chungking as the target (still flying Escort missions). Lets say Chungking is 10 hexes away. But your max range is still set at 6... In this case - because you selected Chungking as the target - the squadron will ignore the max range setting which was left at 6 hexes and fly all the way out 10 hexes to Chungking as long as it makes a successful roll to perform the mission.

As I read this, the Max Range setting is really for Commander's Discretion. I think if you read that section you'll see that it is - in fact - pretty clear cut.

Remember what I was responding to. Cpt. Sherwood was saying that the Max Range was set to 0 and that he gave it a target for LRCAP. According to the manual the game should ignore the range setting of 0 and fly out to the target he had set for LRCAP as long as it had made a successful roll to perform the mission.