NATO vs Warsaw Pact

[rgflores]

In a nutshell, literature says in a eventual conflict between NATO and Warsaw Pact, NATO would win because of his technological superiority and better supply lines, while Soviet Union struggles with lack food to feed their troops (Tom Clancy, John Hackett...)
On the other hand, I am able to win any TOAW scenario based in a conflict between NATO vs Warsaw Pact if I play for Warsaw Pact against PO (Red Thunder for example, but there others).
Here is what happen:
1) Soviet Union units have a tremendous firepower and the bad supply lines are compensated because they outnumber tremendously NATO units, specially during the game when gain reinforcements. Reinforcements that come from US and other countries does not compensate this situation.
2) I think the the weak point of Warsaw Pact is the weak defense power of its unities. But that´s a problem to NATO because it forces NATO to attack even when have inferiority number and it easily spend it´s unities capabilities that are outnumbered by Warsaw Pact.
3) So, I have the situation is that, if I stack a defensive position, even fortifying, I will be destroyed by Warsaw Pact firepower and its reinforcements. On the other hand, if I attack, exploring the weakness of defensive Warsaw Pact´s unities, my unities easily get exhausted. This last one only delays the advance of Warsaw Pact but it does not bring me to victory. I also tried to send paratroopers behind Warsaw Pact lines hopping to cut supply lines but it´s no more than just a suicidal tactical.
The most that I get in Red Thunder scenario was a draw.
Any suggestion or consideration would be very appreciated.

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: rgflores

In a nutshell, literature says in a eventual conflict between NATO and Warsaw Pact, NATO would win because of his technological superiority and better supply lines, while Soviet Union struggles with lack food to feed their troops (Tom Clancy, John Hackett...)
On the other hand, I am able to win any TOAW scenario based in a conflict between NATO vs Warsaw Pact if I play for Warsaw Pact against PO (Red Thunder for example, but there others).
Here is what happen:
1) Soviet Union units have a tremendous firepower and the bad supply lines are compensated because they outnumber tremendously NATO units, specially during the game when gain reinforcements. Reinforcements that come from US and other countries does not compensate this situation.
2) I think the the weak point of Warsaw Pact is the weak defense power of its unities. But that´s a problem to NATO because it forces NATO to attack even when have inferiority number and it easily spend it´s unities capabilities that are outnumbered by Warsaw Pact.
3) So, I have the situation is that, if I stack a defensive position, even fortifying, I will be destroyed by Warsaw Pact firepower and its reinforcements. On the other hand, if I attack, exploring the weakness of defensive Warsaw Pact´s unities, my unities easily get exhausted. This last one only delays the advance of Warsaw Pact but it does not bring me to victory. I also tried to send paratroopers behind Warsaw Pact lines hopping to cut supply lines but it´s no more than just a suicidal tactical.
The most that I get in Red Thunder scenario was a draw.
Any suggestion or consideration would be very appreciated.

Hola Rodrigo!

You'll be surprised what difference the AAA-fix 'unofficial' makes. Close support missions and attacks on stacks with the airforce and in particular helicopters will suffer accordingly, mainly due to the units attached AA-hand held and other AA-defence systems as well as AA-missile batteries in the proximity.

Now, which version are you playing, I mean Red Thunder, and was it revised for 3.4. Drop me a line, let me have a look and perhaps send me the latest .SAL? Supply might need to be adjusted as well, which is the case for most pre 3.4 scenarios.

Klink, Oberst

[MPHopcroft1]

IIRC, in real life most of the troops assigned to Germany during the Cold War held few illusions about their chances against a Communist invasion. They saw that they would be at the most speed bumps against a rampaging Warsaw Pact.

Two things prevented this from happening: the fact that Moscow wasn't all that interested in conquering the West and the greater fact that an attack on West Germany would lead to massive nuclear retaliation in a matter of hours. It would have been suicide on a species-wide scale.

[pzgndr]

Supply might need to be adjusted as well, which is the case for most pre 3.4 scenarios.

Is there a general concensus among those who have made scenario updates for what supply adjustments should be made for v3.4?

[Oberst_Klink]

Just checked the Red Thunder '88 vanilla... and the MRPB=99 and AD=10. Supply seems to be OK.
Changes to be implemented are simple: AD=28 and MRPB=3.

Klink, Oberst



OT: Mike, nice seeing you around again!

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: rgflores

I am able to win any TOAW scenario based in a conflict between NATO vs Warsaw Pact if I play for Warsaw Pact against PO (Red Thunder for example, but there others).

Any suggestion or consideration would be very appreciated.

Play against a human opponent. The PO isn't very good at defense, especially in situations when he should delay only and go over to counteroffensive at some point.

All else, i agree. I'm currently playing the WP forces in a PBEM (Sudden War '79 by Bob Cross). However my opponnent (Ogar) managed to evap my armored pincers in the Fulda Gap on turn 3(?). Not that it did yet stop me, but it's waaaayyy different from playing vs the PO.

[ogar]

You can tell this is alternate history because A) it's NATO vs Warsaw Pact, and B) Ogar evaporated armored pincers in the Fulda Gap.[:D]
Although I sometimes think the name of this scenario ought to be The Next Evaporation, as my units vanish just as quickly despite my known bad-habits of ML or LL attacking.

I think that the scenario briefing may also clue you in as to what the designer expects - initial WP success, NATO struggles, NATO drives east or overwhelming WP advance followed by NATO counter-attacks followed by ???  But as Telumar wrote - the PO has problems as a defender, and I think, its limitations are worsened in a 'modern era ' scenario (vs a WWII or WWI scenario).  Still, the PO can provide a great training situation, and it never gets annoyed if you win a lot.

[rgflores]

Hallo Wilhelm!

That´s interesting. I´m in 3.4 version. I will play another time Red Thunder again with unofficial patch now. Did not tried that. Let´s see what will happen. Danke für ihre wider hilfe! [:)]

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: rgflores

Hallo Wilhelm!

That´s interesting. I´m in 3.4 version. I will play another time Red Thunder again with unofficial patch now. Did not tried that. Let´s see what will happen. Danke für ihre wider hilfe! [:)]

Make sure to edit the values as stated, too.

Klink, Oberst

[rgflores]

Vini, vidi, vici! Not good in latin, so here it goes: I won! A marginal victory, but I won anyway[:)]
But first, as programmed by PO, soviets launch a massive paratrooper assault on west of Dortmund, south of Amsterdam, and I had to defeat them as quick as possible since it could affect the future NATO reinforcements. Of course, soviets also stormed an endless wave of armoured units against Berlin and heads to north, center and south of Germany. There is not much to do except wait for the least worse while wait for reinforcements.
In the begin of the combats, red army easily capture the outskirts of Dortmund, but at this time NATO has enough troops to halt the advance of soviets.
After vanish soviet paratroopers in the west of Dortmund, it´s time to try a daring plan. I sent by helicopter units to capture Hannover, poorly defended and I noted that soviets troops stacked in Dortmund outskirts immediately drive back to recapture Hannover. I was quickly defeated in Dortmund but it showed what I should do to in the future with a better plan. It was a good idea to force soviet army keep moving to exhaust their supply.
So, I decided to create a path from Dortmund using the south Autobahn (road) until reaches Hannover. Of course these road had a lot of soviet troops stacked but after a gruesome fight I finally created a supply line until near Hannover. After capture Hannover, soviets again drive back to recapture Hannover, but they were easily defeated. I was delighted destroying soviet troops as soon as they arrive near Hannover.
However, soviets launch another offensive in the south of Hannover and destroyed my supply line. At this time I thought the game would ends in "draw" as always, but in this part of the scenario, the red army was in very bad shape, and NATO troops were gaining ground in the north of Europe and I could rebuild the supply line via north of Germany. Also, I destroyed the bridges on west of Hannover to cut soviet´s supply lines.
If the scenario had more turns surely NATO troops stacked in Dortmund, which at this time was gaining ground, could reach reach even Berlin. Anyway in the last 3 turns scenario was showing "marginal victory". Finally I won a scenario playing for NATO side!

[Sensei.Tokugawa]

Well, that's fighting the AI - if You fancied pushing Your luck against a red human opponent, You can jump at the opportunity - I even happen to have a RT '88 turn ready; I had an opponent whose post I had responded to, then completed the turn and sent, but the guy had an issue with the AAA fix and decided to vanish.let me know if You feel like.

[wodin]

If you fancy a Cold war gone hot wargame Flashpoint Campaigns is superb. The developers are listening and it will only get better. I can't recommend it enough, the fantastic turn system is unique and really makes the game. In my eyes it's the best wargame released in a very long time and all Wargamers should have a copy.

[Alpha77]

Both sides can win this one vs. PO.

I played "Red Thunder" some time ago (without AA patch at this time)... However I played a lot of the Orig. "Red Lightning" from SSI years ago on Amiga, so had kind of experience with this scenario.

The strategy for Nato is two-fold divided by area:

- in the North give away ground and delay until you reach some better defensive territory (behind rivers mostly but there are not much hills and woods, so also defend the urban area. However dont get yourself surrounded then better give up the city. Hamburg can´t be hold, so delay there and cause casualtities then escape over the river (Elbe) and try to defend the other riverband. If this doesn´t work give ground to some swamp and cropland in the Bremen area. You give ground untill the Dutch border. But this should not be neccesary because at this point in time the Dutch army should be mobilized and join the German and US effort (the US has only 1 brigade up there, but it helps). Also the British get some reeinforcements however these are more for the middle-north front (Hannover, Ruhrgebiet).

Denmark CAN be defended too, just eliminate the paras and marines, this is possible cause in my game one of the red marine brigades did not advance on Copenhagen but just seemed to defend the landing ground (Anzio anyone?). So it was possible to beat them piece by piece, the red army marines are harder, so first eliminate the Polish one. If Copenhagen is save you can beat the remaining marines brigae which defends (and so negates their chance to capture Copenhagen).

In the far Northern Denmark the GDR army will advance after they capture Kiel (can not be hold). However they are not as good as Red army. You need to gather the British which will land some light infantry stuff and the remaining German and Danish units (only the Germans have some better armor while the Danish have only some Leo1 and Centurions so they should not be exposed on bad defensive terrain they stand no chance even vs. huge number of T55s). Dont lose the landing terrain of the British otherwise Denmark should be gone. Also try to hold the mobilization areas of the Ger Heimatschützen (this applies of course for the whole front). While the Heimatschützen have only light equipment and mediocre experience they still can be counted on to hold good terrain for a while until better stuff arrives. Basically the same usage as the lighter French units, which also suffer from mediocre battletank (AMX30).

Anyway you should now hold a line close to the Dutch border and the Dutch have arrived in force. Provided you did not lose too much of German units wear the WP down and attack their weaker spots. You should be able to chase them back to Hamburg. Note that some Dutch units are as good as German ones cause they have Leo2 and good experience. These are the ones to group together and assault together with Panzer and Pz.Gren Brigades.

The middle-north sector which is around Hannover should be defended the same way, but you have better British and better terrain. BUT do not try to hold too much, cause also your enemy is better (more Russian untis less allied). Give ground until the Ruhr (the most eastern city of the Ruhr is Dortmund) this urban terrain is also good to use the lighter French and Belgian units. Note later Brits units are also lighter ones, be careful with em in open areas. Obviously the Challenger equiped Brits are the best ones for attack. I lost quite a number of them however, luckily the French will arrive. Also more Belgians but they seem to be the weakest of the West so use better defensivly. I used mostly Dutch , Belgians and some of the arriving French to bottle up the red paras that land west of the Ruhr. This is not a job that should be done in haste cause on the defense these buggers can be hard to eliminate. Just make sure they dont overrun mobilization areas!

[Alpha77]

For the South your stratgey CAN be different, depending how good you are.

You can hold more forward lines here, cause more hills and woods. Also you have some good US stuff with M1s etc. One of the drawbacks of the US (and British) is that dont have these smaller (but still equiped with MBTs) recon units that the Dutch and Germans have. These recons are essential in the game system to extract your units from threatened areas. You should draw out all battle units and the recon unit remains and must be extracted as the last one in the hex. Of course they also give more intel on the enemy. Not sure if this is the historic correct usage of the recons (in this case they perform a screening function) but in the game it works this way. So maybe give the US in this area at least one of the German heavy recon units so you can better extract them without triggering engaments. In this case your unit will be lost mostly in dagerous situations cause it loses all movement points and needs to remain in mobile stance with masses of enemies nearby [X(] However if you are able to disengage your units just wander to the next better defensive line (ideally there should be at least some smaller unit with engineers that prepared some dug ins). Then the red units must chase after you, they lose some strength and maybe get interdicted by air too. You can win 1 or 2 turns and the reds will ideally bump into your line in forrest or hill with an already dug in defender..[:D]

Hold Munich use this area as assembly point for the all the French and some US that will arrive. Then you can either drive up north and cut of the Reds or try to beat the Czechs to the east. The Czechs btw have 2 or 3 divs which are unhistorical strong, cause they have T80s which wasnt the case in reality (they had T72s and T55s). But guess its ok to give the PO some help.

I was able to capture Leipzig, Dresden and Prague and get to the outskirts of Berlin. The Czechs surrended and revolted (this results in less supply for the WP!).


BTW: As most of you know the equipment isnt very historical correct int eh "vanilla" database. So I began to wrok on a better "cold war" database - see separate thread in scenaro forum. But I dont have enough time to complete it right now. It will come with a cold war scenario, too.

[TrevB]

Some fascinating, detailed advice there Alpha77.

I usually try to hold the NATO line as far East as possible and get beaten up fairly quickly. I like the idea of falling back to the Dutch border and then using the Dutch heavy divisions to push back.

Look forward to the Cold War database if you get round to it!

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: TrevB

Some fascinating, detailed advice there Alpha77.

I usually try to hold the NATO line as far East as possible and get beaten up fairly quickly. I like the idea of falling back to the Dutch border and then using the Dutch heavy divisions to push back.

Look forward to the Cold War database if you get round to it!

Thanks Trev B,

I share some more advise.

a) You need also a bit of luck in the naval battles, as I remember if you win the battle of the atlantic you get more supply. Also the battle of Norway might be important, as you might get some small units that can be withdrawn from that front to the central area.

In my game I WON the naval battle, but Norway was inconclusive.

b) Dont use atomic weapons I tried it out and only it only leads to much impassable (contaminated) terrain and losses on both sides. The WP will then retaliate with tac nukes so it brings no advantage to either side. As you need ground to manouver in the later game for the counteroffensive contaminated ground might hinder the NATO more than WP.

c) Dont use your paras in early stages. First get air superiority (otherwise they might be shot down in the transport planes anyway). I used the paras (which are some German FJs, 1 Dutch, 1 British and airmobile French units) as follows. They are needed to plug lines. Can be transported fast with helis to critical areas. Dont land them to close to strong WP units. Better deploy them to form a fast defense line on woods, hills etc. Maybe to form/prepare a fallback line for your main army. Later when WP is weakened and you have enough paras left they can support your advance to the east in cutting supply lines. Or even to take weakly defended cities.

d) I think the air stuff is a bit too weak in this scen as it causes not much casualities only in great masses. Ex. if I attack with 100 Tornados they should normally cause a lot of carnage. Not in the game tho. German Tornados were armed also with the MW1 (mine and bomblet dispenser) which "should" have been quite effective in reality. But seems not to be modelled in. The same goes on smaller scale for F111s (they dont have a simmilar weapon like the MW1 but therefore are bigger and carry more normal bombs or laser guided stuff). F111s and Tornadoes seem to work better for interdiction and air field attack. In the game the ALPHA JET have wrong much too low range, so they are quite useless. Also their bombload is low (which is more historic). However German Alphas at least (dont know about the French ones) had a 27mm Mauser gun (also the training planes could be equipped with it as it was a pod). So alone this gun packs some punch add to this some bombs and the Alpha could have been a decent attack plane in game they are useless. HELIS however really add to your anti TANK capability ! Not so much vs. soft stuff however. Be careful! If you dont have air superiority in a sector where helis are used they may die in droves. Best helis are the US ones as well some German BO105s have HOT AT missiles.

Also at the start pull back some air units from forward airfields. You later deploy them forward again as soon more F15s and F16s from USAF arrive to have a better air umbrella. Dont use these types for close air support btw. they are (in game) more useful as fighters

I also started a game as WP but quit after 20 turns or so. I found it a bit too easy as mentioned already the PO isnt that good in defense and delay.....

[Alpha77]

Well I fired up that one for a "quick" fix on modern stuff, that I needed to get a sense for again after sessions with eastern front in Directive 21. Guess I wanted to have an idea how stuff behaves also in comparison with WW2. I need to say both scens use the same database which is the "vanilla" one that comes with the game basically. Ofc this has some serious problems both for modern and WW2 like most of you know. I am trying to optimize the modern side of things a bit with the "modern" eqp file you guys can download soon.

So I started this time as the "bloody commies" like Ronny Reagan would have said

Here is my strategy vs. PO, which is pretty simple (and bloody and mean, too):

a) The main effort is to the north. The middle sector comes secondary (ofc Frankfurt, Bonn and the Ruhr are tempting targets, but I consider the elimination of the imperialist westerner mercenaries as imparative compared to capturing some worthless ugly German or Dutch cities). Even if the description says that countries might surrender if you capture important points or capitals I dont care about that. Also chose to not care about capturing reeinforcement entry hexes. The south should be more of a diversion of Nato efforts. To this end the Czechs shall march to Munich. And while there in the area take a bite from of Wiener Schnitzel too. But sadly the option "invade Austria" didnt work (maybe there is some kind of % chance involved if you chose the option?). So part of Czechs waited untill war is declared on Austria which never happened. They thought they could get away from being killed at first...but then had to march to join their comrades to march on Munich. No Wiener Schnitzel but therefore some bavarian "Weissbier" - even better !

b) Our brave allies (or better servants) in form of Poles, Czechs and East Germans will bear the brunt of the fighting in the first days and also will be a kind of cannonfodder. Well if they let themselves feed to the cannon they will get their wishes fullfilled. [:D]

c) Wont care much about airforce, nuclear or chemical stuff. In vanilla TOAWIII air is underpowered for ground attack anyway. This is true for modern times even more than WW2. Also the ERRORS in the plane data are so obvious to anyone that it makes no fun to use anyway as it is more fantasy than reality. [8|] Here are the 2 main examples on the red side:

- Mig21 - these have ridicious high AA values. It might be true that Mig21 was a good fighter in the 60ties and early 70ties. But this is 1988. But you need to compare their values with some truely good fighters of the 80ties like F15, F16, Mig 29 or SU27 to see it clearly I guess.

- SU24: What was one of the nightmares of western planners in game is a "lame duck". THis was the eastern counterpart to the F111 (and even Tornado). Not as effective maybe but still possesed the features other WP planes lacked in these days: Long range, speed and heavy payload. Also some electronic countermeasures (ECM). In game it has very short range and average weapons load. Maybe like to compare the early German DO17 with a late war B25. The SU24 is B25, but is made to a DO17 [:o]

But I disgress, I set all fighters to AA and all bombers to ground support. Also moved the shortlegged stuff closer to the borders. Like the SU24s and Su25s - which also have much to low range (like the western Alpha Jet btw.). Normally the employment of SU42s (maybe ther was a very early version which is portrait in game??) would be more at hinterland fields and they can still reach targets in Holland for example with high and low speed runs. Deep penetration it was called and the F111 was the US plane for this role. Su24 firstly gave Soviets that capability. Doesnt work in the game, so they are now relegated to some short legged ground support efforts...Did not bother with airfields attacks only a few number at day1 which killed/damaged some lame Alphas and as a better prey evoparated a complete Luftwaffe F4 unit. Most of em are only damaged so they will be back I guess.

All paratroops and marines were employed at day1. All marines to Denmark and I wanted to try something different with the paras. Sent them to Holland and to the Ruhrgebiet. 2 of em were destroyed the rest landed near Essen and near Den Haag/Rotterdam. Pushed away some surprised Cheese eaters and captured both cities. Then tried to march on Amsterdam. Well they reached the city but then were halted there. Dutch defended their historical canals city better. Later they were destroyed but they kept Nato on their feet in quiet Holland for a while......Meanwhile the other paras made sightseeing in the Ruhr. Dortmund was taken.... Well their role was to deny the main roads there and delay reinforcements. They also pushed back some AA and security units but later had to dig in as Nato bottled them up with arriving Frenchies and Belgians mainly. One of the paras survived though thanks to the quick speed of WP middle front armies. Para was later used as further cannonfodder - a commander can never have enough of.

The marines that beached near Copenhagen suprised some Danes still in weekend mood pushed them away, they retreated to Copenhagen. First assault on city was halted, but 2nd won the capital. The other marines walked around in northern Denmark and wondering if anyone is there. Yup, a small city and airfield were bagged. The Danes later got some quite weak units which defended everything more worthy in the country (maybe northern blonde beauties?). So also digged in and waited untill the east Germans (=DDR) arrived. These pushed back gradually the Bundeswehr (=BW) SH corps and remnants of security and AA defense units. After fall of Berlin some Red Army (=RA) units joined to mop up the Country. However later some BW Heimatschützen appeared someone (thought we had overrun any site to mobilize them, but they were there anyway). Those temporally together with left ofter BW SH corps troops cut Denmark from supply from the east (I guess we still received some over the sea?). But finally they were all beaten and Denmark surrended. Some troops decided to fight on despite this (very heroic) but these were only some scattered old men with shotguns [:'(]

Ah btw. Berlin - we wanted to have it in our hands asap. Reason is not that is of any worth for the war effort counts something for the Soviets as a symbol. But Berlin has an important position with main roads crossing there. Means: Berlin free, faster movement for 2nd and 3rd wave of WP. Even some Guards army units were used in Berlin and it all Nato units there were eventually eliminated. Means so far: Denmark&Berlin taken. Amsterdam threatened. Ruhrgebiet blocked for a time.

More later........[;)]

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: TrevB


I usually try to hold the NATO line as far East as possible

This is what the PO as Nato in game also tries btw.[:D]

[Grognard]

As long as we're on the subject -

What's my avatar ?

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: Grognard

As long as we're on the subject -

What's my avatar ?

14th Armored Cavalry Regiment; Suivez moi! - Follow me! Attached a bigger version of the patch.



Klink, Oberst