The illusory 'lightness' of energy weapons.

Korgmeister · Post by **Korgmeister** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:39 pm

Energy weapons are like the CD shop where you buy 3 CDs for $10 each, when you normally would only buy 1 CD if they were selling it for $15.

OK, that was a crap analogy.

The point I'm making is that energy weapons seem attractive because they seem so light and compact...but I'm starting to realise that they aren't at all.

I will often pass over cannons because they seem far too heavy and bulky for their performance. But it was only after working on my 'Ninja' design that it occured to me that the savings of space and weight I believed came with energy weapons are all completely in my head.

Y'see, when I choose a Heavy Laser over an AC 7, am I really saving space and weight? Umm, not really. Despite the fact that the AC7 is 2 tons heavier and each slot of ammo takes up 0.5 ton.

OK, let's take Weight first.

Now the Large Laser is going to need 2 PU more juice according to the instruction manual (IIRC).

Depending on what Powerplant you're using, that can be anywhere from 2 to 11 tons extra weight.
Can you say? EEEEEEK!!!

Also, take into account that Energy weapons tend to heat up much more, although I believe that is more to do with their faster firing than anything else.

Also, take into account the space those engines take up. Admittedly it's not often as severe as anmmunition, but it can be a big problem if it lives insufficient room for armour. A big engine housed in the Centre Torso (most vulnerable servo to attack) with thin armour due to space restrictions can turn an expensive titan into a walking firecracker!

So these days, I am considering that if I'm going to be serious about designing walking tanks, I oughta stop snubbing cannon weapons so much and embrace the guns that fire da ammo!

Just make sure you include a DCS in the design. Ammo explosions are friggin' nasty! Also, I must admit, the range of most cannon weapons is better than most energy weapons.

Hand me some words, will you, Whitefirefox?

*munch, munch, much*

Mmmm, bitter!

discord · Post by **discord** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 5:04 pm

you can get around some of that problem by making it a "stationary firing platform" that will save you 2-3PU's....and some weight on frame weight aswell....but heat is always a problem, btw. did i mention the fact that i love flamers? DANGIT i love the smell of napalm in the morning....overheating, ammo explosion, damage redistribution....ahh, love those texts....not to forget emergency shutdown....*joy*

//discord

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:54 pm

Ah, Korg, it only took you 3 whole months to figure that out...

discord · Post by **discord** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 12:23 am

sorry, totaly forgot, congrats korg! there all okey now?
(must be all those...years spent designing mechs for MF that's paying off...or something)

//discord

Korgmeister · Post by **Korgmeister** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:52 am

I think it's more that I never really bothered to think about it.

I just merrily installed a Large Laser, and overlooked the cannon weapons because they were 'heavy'...it didn't occur to me to do the math and realise that I certainly wasn't saving weight with the bigger powerplant.

As for the 'Stationary Firing Platform' I normally build light Titans that fire, run, fire, run. As such, they generally don't need to recharge as quick, but under that logic, Cannons or even SRMs would suit them better anyway.

Also, I am a huge fan of flamers. Ever since I used the crucible *droolz* I am in awe of what a horribly debilitating weapon they are (they're a bit naff in polar, but still not entirely useless).

Also, I'd say it took me 6 months to figure that out. I've been playing Titans a while longer than I've been on the forum

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:48 pm

And I thought titan design was all about thinking about it...

This whole cannon/energy/... is called game balance, you know. Did you really think there would be some weapons much better than others?! Each weapon type has its role, its strengths and weaknesses. Like in any other game.
Don't get too dazed by the flamers, they're good but they're not the best. They're practically a CC weapon, with -45% at range 1. Shields reduce their effectiveness, and ammo is a pain.
About the 6 months, what I know is what I read, and 3 months ago you were saying you were a complete newbie. Still, you talk like a newbie

(no offense meant)

CrushU · Post by **CrushU** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:57 am

mm.... lasers are USUALLY better than cannons, in my opinion. For one, they dont explode, x( ammo explosions are unfair cuz they increase heat and cause more ammo explosions, basically meaning that after the first one, you will no longer have ammo.

Cannons have a recycle time, and dont depend on available power, which means you can put a smaller engine on, larger shield, run, swivel, run the blender, and iron yer pants at the same time. Lasers have special effects. Lasers heat a lot more than cannons, which is one of the biggest reasons to take a cannon. Cannons are usually more accurate than lasers, for some reason. (Strange, I would think a beam of light would be more accurate than a projectile subject to friction, wind, and the numerous other factors that make firing a pistol accurately difficult...) Cannons are more useful than lasers in Hell and Dungeon, cuz gravestones dont burn.

But yes, each weapon has its purpose. LRM's are for.............. cutting down trees, SRMs are for short-ranged ... tree-cutting. Guided Missles are for Long Range head-bashing (sigh, they cant do called shots tho... WHY IS THAT?! They're GUIDED missles and you cant aim for a specific part of the titan???) Cannons are for knocking over (i think they have better chance of getting a skill check... other than BRG) and for smoke screens, and in case of GC and AC4, sniping with called shots. Lasers are for making enemy sweat, both by heating up his shield and lighting the woods he's in on fire. Also they are pretty decent in the damage zone (lets not forget the most powerful weapon in the game: Tesla Bolt... mmmmm 25 dmg *watches entire recon head go rolling along ground, complete with armor attached* mmmmm) Mesons are for very lame people *coughHetzcough*. Flamers are NOT for polar. CC weapons are for........ mmmm........ they cant cut trees............. ah, increasing power at point blank, yeah thats it.... And titans with Engine A and no armor are for kamikazi missions... Whaaaat? You guys dont all have a spare jock on a Engine A/no armor tos you send just to blow the enemy to bits???

PrinceCorrin · Post by **PrinceCorrin** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 3:22 pm

yummm. Cheezy

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:26 pm

yawn.
Maybe you should check what guided means?!

Korgmeister · Post by **Korgmeister** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 12:11 pm

Considering how long some of the people, like Thogrim, Hetzer and PrinceCorrin have been around, yes, I am a newbie compared to you and probably will be a long time.

And yes, I talk like a newbie because guess what? I'm not actually very good at this game =P

I do believe that makes me a Newbie, just a long-in-the-tooth newbie.

But yes, I post this little article just to warn other newbies who made the same mistake of thinking that energy weapons are superior to cannons. Besides, I like a good debate.

discord · Post by **discord** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:34 pm

korg: personaly i prefer energy weapons, atleast in theory, mainly due to lack of ammo. i REALLY dislike those ammo explosions, on myself that is, not that i am dismissing cannons, just dont like'em. *grin*

//discord

Ronarius · Post by **Ronarius** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:14 pm

I think energy weapons are the best in the game and definately worth the bigger engine and heat sinks.

I rarely use cannons, I usually have one but its on this mech, sorry titan I designed with 3 LRM9s. It just kinda sits at the back, blows up stuff with the LRMs (does anyone else think LRMs are useless for attacking other titans?) and lays down cool smoke screens with the cannon.

The only other time I use them is when I put machine guns on the close combat titans I design. The 4 damage at close range and their lightness makes them ideal.

I went through a phase of using meson guns once because of the internal damage they can cause to mechs, but they just arent worth it.

Where would you be without a sniper mech with twin plasma cannons, may favourite and (i reckon) the best weapon in the game. Cold light guns are another fav. Quite good damage, and not much heat for a laser. Telsa bolts also rock. Fit up a close combat titan with twin chain saws, machine guns and a single telsa bolt for luck. The heat the telsa generates doesnt matter much cause the other weapons dont cause much heat. A couple of hits with that and a few chops of the chain saws and even the most heavily armed titans will be humbled.

PrinceCorrin · Post by **PrinceCorrin** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 2:33 am

Interesting. And you say you've played against hetzer?
No?
Well let me tell you about him. He'll tear you a new one with his cannons. Trust me. And if you get in range to hit him with that Tesla and those saws, he'll liquidate your jock with his damnably lucky use of NBs. *IF* you get in range. And missiles are effective if used properly. I prefer GMs myself, but I know many great players who swear by LRMs. The venerable Iceman being the foremost in my mind.

But hetzer loves his cannons for a reason. And that plasma gun can't compare to a good old GC. No way.

Don't get me wrong. Energy weapons are wonderful. I'm just saying that cannons have merits beyond, perhaps, what you have noted.

(BTW, I like axes better than saws. Less heat, faster recycle, lighter more room for armor and those teslas you love. More than makes up for 5 less damage.)

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:20 pm

I don't have a favorite weapon, they're all great. About LRMs, they just have this nasty habit of decapitating you really fast when used in great numbers.

In WS they're more balanced.

discord · Post by **discord** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 2:12 pm

back in the OLD days(mechforce/amiga back in 94 or something like that), 2xLRM20/2xAC20 was the real way to go, although up untill the batch for >100ton mechs appeared they got abit light armor, still worth it though, after the >100ton fix, with the new code for modding weapons included, the best combo was 2xLRM20/2xAC10(modded to do equal damage as a AC20 with alot more range), well, that was the OLD days.....now? well, the weaponry is alot more balanced now, that's for sure....but as it has been said, not much can survive a quad flamer up close....tesla/AC20 do huge amounts of damage, with drawbacks....ahwell, should mess around some more with the titans, and see what i can come up with.

//discord

Korgmeister · Post by **Korgmeister** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:33 pm

I will agree that the Gauss Cannon well and truly blows the Plasma Gun out of the water. I think the only reason it has such insanely high heat (compared to other cannons) is to stop it from being too broken.

And I have already stated that I like chainsaws because they are sexier - I have no more rational reason than that. If WS has an equally cool sound for the Power Axe, then maybe I will change my preference.

I dislike Mesons, Neutron Blasters and Black Ray Guns because they rely on luck - a resource of which I am notoriously scant.

However, this is one of the reasons I prefer Androids and Cyborgs. Neutron Blaster are alot less likely to screw them up. You definately want the pilot of a CC titan to be one of those two types, due to their higher risk of exposre to NBs and powerplant explosions.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Fri Oct 25, 2002 8:50 pm

I wouldn't say the GC is better than the PG. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. About the GC's high heat, I'd expect it to be so, the energy absorbed by the coil to propell the slug at supersonic speed is enormous. And then there's friction.

About mesons and BRGs, try looking at them in different ways. You seem to fixate on something and forget to explore. For instance, the mesons, they're not just weapons to cause crits. I prefer using them to chew a bodypart from within with called shots. If a crit comes along, great. And the BRG. Up close, 10 damage for 25 heat? Better than the PG. AND it may force a skill check. AND it deals extra jock damage on cockpit hits. AND it is better at burning woods.

On Androids, yes, they're more resistant to NBs. But if they get wounded, they'll take forever to heal. And in a CC titan that's just not acceptable. Cyborgs, well, they just don't have the bonuses to the initial stats.
It's a matter of tradeoffs. Like everything else in this game. How many times have I said this already?

It's one of the things that makes this game so good.

PrinceCorrin · Post by **PrinceCorrin** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 6:00 pm

Absofrigginlutely agree with Iceman.

I feel so dirty saying that.

Hetz · Post by **Hetz** » Sun Oct 27, 2002 12:02 am

It's ok PC. I understand, we all make mistakes. Come to my Arena and I'll clense you in the fires of Purity (checks loads on flamethrowers).

CrushU · Post by **CrushU** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 11:30 pm

... eh, energy weapons have that no ammo thing goin for them...

It is the best to light woods on fire... that contain an enemy sniper