Vulcans never attack helicopters

[MrLongleg]

I saw that many times and in the meantime I think it must be a bug. The Vulcan platoon is one to two hexes away from Russian helis, has ammunition and morale and a clear line of sight and still never shoots. Only my Bradleys are doing harm to the helicopters.

[76mm]

Apaches don't seem to do much against Hinds either, while Hinds blow my Apaches out of the sky very quickly.

[guderian68]

me too had problem with antiair units. Usually soviet elicopter are shoot down by infantry and tank (?) platoons.
I don't remenber a single vulcan or similar units hit.

[CapnDarwin]

We are working on a couple fixes for AD units we found in testing during the week. By any chance were those Vulcans in smoke? I am also adding a bug tracking issue this morning to address the "lack" of aggression against air targets.

Thanks for the inputs.

[Mad Russian]

Were your Apache's in Hold? When I put Apache's in hold they get more aggressive.

The AI will move it's forces by assault move quite a bit. That means they end with a hold order. When a unit is in hold it will fire at anything that comes in range.

That's okay, and it makes the Apache's more aggressive but they should be aggressively firing at enemy units in screen mode too. Not just continually backing away.

Good Hunting.

MR

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Were your Apache's in Hold? When I put Apache's in hold they get more aggressive.

No, in fact, I've been a little fuzzy on how the move orders and postures afffect helicopters. Even on screen my Apaches would fire on Hinds, they just wouldn't kill many, while the Hinds blow the Apaches out of the sky. I wouldn't have minded if my Apaches had evaded away from the Hinds--I didn't really want them to stay in place--but I was hoping that at least they would take some Hinds with them.

These comments are based on one playing of 3rd Herd, but the results in that game were consistent and clear...

[Panta_slith]

I have already pointed that fact and got an answer saying the more or less that Vulcans are totally ineffective, Vulcans sucks, etc. [8D]
If they are useless, why bothering making them part of the OOB? They are like the kitchen company or so...

[Mad Russian]

You give a helicopter an assault order, just like you do a ground unit, and it ends it's move in hold.

At the moment I still don't think Apache's are aggressive enough.

Good Hunting.

MR

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
At the moment I still don't think Apache's are aggressive enough.

Even on Screen they do pretty spectacularly well vs ground targets (one of mine had almost 100 kills), just not so well against other helos.

[cbelva]

One thing I would advise people and this is coming from experience. Don't base your opinions regarding what is working and what is not working on only one play thru. I have made that mistake in the past on more than one occasions. Their are difference factors (such as morale) that can affect performance and they can change during different play. The AI does not always responds the same way each game. Play several times to get a feel overall before jumping to conclusions. If it is a problem, you should see it repeat several times. I have seen Vulcans take out Hinds (as recently as yesterday). But I think there may be some tweaking that needs done because they do seem somewhat timid. However, it is my understanding that they are a line of sight weapon. Their weapon is not radar guided so the crew have to see the target before they can engage. They have a radar, but was for determining distance. (note--I was not a duck hunter so I will bow to someone with more knowledge on this than me) However, I have seen quite a few comments on the forum about some problem or some weapon not doing what they thought it should be doing based sorely on one playing of a scenario. I have played scenarios where the Soviets blew thru the Americans and their M1A1 and thought, "oh no, M1A1s are broken". Then play it again and the M1A1 blows the T-80s off the map. It can depend on tactics, changing weather conditions, morale, who fired first, command and control, use of terrain, etc.

[Panta_slith]

You are right about that. To solve the problem I started the Dawn scenario in H to H mode, placed two Vulcans in approximately the same place as in the previous game and then, as WP, I gave orders to the Hinds to close in. After several turns (5 hours) the choppers just didn't move and as I was bored of waiting just quit, probably I did (or didn't) something the Hinds needed for moving, other than having wayponts.

[cbelva]

Panta, can you attached a saved game file from after you gave the orders to move. I would like to look at that.

[guderian68]

I notice the unefectiness of vulcan against helicopter several time.
I can also say that the vulcan are very effective against fixed wing aircraft.

I want also to point out that I noticed that behaviour with air defence unit of german army too. So in my feeling is not a Vulcan problem.

[Panta_slith]

No, sorry, I searched but didn't find it. On the other hand, I tried to reproduce the problem and now the choppers do move, the Vulcans fire at them but with little success even at close range and are decimated. I have another .sav where one of the choppers unit at 1819, a Coy HQ, just doesn't move, but the others do and fight normally.
(.sav extension changed to .txt)

[cbelva]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Were your Apache's in Hold? When I put Apache's in hold they get more aggressive.

No, in fact, I've been a little fuzzy on how the move orders and postures afffect helicopters. Even on screen my Apaches would fire on Hinds, they just wouldn't kill many, while the Hinds blow the Apaches out of the sky. I wouldn't have minded if my Apaches had evaded away from the Hinds--I didn't really want them to stay in place--but I was hoping that at least they would take some Hinds with them.

These comments are based on one playing of 3rd Herd, but the results in that game were consistent and clear...

I just ran a test scenario where I squared off 6 Apaches against 6 Hinds (3 units with 2 helos each side). When the dust cleared it was 5 Hinds laying on the ground burning and all 6 Apaches still flying. This is just one test. I have had instances in other scenario where the Hinds came out on top. I have had times where they broke even. This being said, we will continue to keep our eyes on helos and AD units.

[grant1pa]

I just finished "Head On" on Saturday and both my vulcan and apache units performed as I would have expected them to. The vulcans got kills once they moved out of a minefield and smoke they got hit in, and my apaches did quite well against armour and aerial targets while screening south of Bischofsheim. When I changed to assault once I brough armor support up, they became more aggressive and did better.

I noted in one scenario I played last week that my air defense was next to useless. The hinds ripped me, resupplied, then came back to do it again. The difference I remember in the two games was weather (lower visibility in Head On) and morale, less in the small fulda gap scenario (sorry, can't remember the name) and better in Head On.

The other thing I have to observe is tactical use of the units. The better my head wraps around the tactical system in the game and the better I deploy and use the terrain, arty, air, and unit dynamics, the better they peform and I perform. Nice little military model this game is!

I'm not displeased with the performance of the air defense, knowing the problems NATO faced in this era. But I think it may be good to look at it down the road. In the meantime, I'm enjoying what the game provides right now.

Tom

[TheWombat_matrixforum]

I saw this thread title and said, "What? Spock never saw a helicopter, did he?"

[Mad Russian]

The Hinds use cloaking devices that's why the do so well!

Good Hunting.

MR

[MrLongleg]

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

We are working on a couple fixes for AD units we found in testing during the week. By any chance were those Vulcans in smoke? I

No smoke, they just stared at the helicopters in plain sight 500 to 1000 m away without doing anything. Due to their radar they will get killed by artillery after a while...

[cbelva]

ORIGINAL: TheWombat

I saw this thread title and said, "What? Spock never saw a helicopter, did he?"

Yes, Spock saw a helicopter once. Remember "The Voyage Home"? Sulu used one to delivery the thick Plexiglas for the whale container