A Glorious Way to...Kick Butt!

[rlc27]

Well, my fleet carriers were out of torpedoes or something, and scurrying away, while the Hornet and three CVE's were creeping up to "my" base at Lunga, no doubt up to no good. I *happened* to have five battlewagons, including none other than the great grey ladies Yamato and Musashi, as well as a couple of Kongos and Nagato, all of them sitting in Lunga harbor (hastily improved). I thought, well, why not send them on a mad dash at the carriers, who knows what'll happen?

I aimed them straight south of Guadalcanal: "go fetch!" That night, at 5000 yards, what did the American commander see, but five tiny shapes, come Prancer and Dancer and Yamato and Hiei, come Musashi and Kirishima and Donner and...well, you get it. Let's just say that CLAA cruisers do not stand up well to 18.1 inch guns. And what to my wandering eyes should appear, but a Hornet, defenseless and near. And what do my big boys aim their guns at? The escorts. Final results: 2 CLAA sunk (one of them took 4 hits from Musashi's big kahoonas!), 2 destroyers sunk, one CA untouched, and the Hornet, sitting there as pristine and wide-eyed as Bambi. And that was the end of round 1.

Then, round 2. The enemy comes at me with 4 destroyers and 3 CVE's. Again, we manage to take out ALL the destroyers--fancy what it must look like when one is hit with a 16.1" shell! But none, repeat NONE, of the carriers have so much as a scratch on their Dazzle paint. 5 Battleships!

I think that it wasn't naval airpower that spelled the battleship era. It was that all the old-style battleship admirals wore special glasses that prevented them from seeing anything with wings that was larger than an albatross, or any vessel which didn't have a towering mast structure and destroyer-sized turrets.

In any case, my Lunga based air cleaned up, to the tune of 70+ Betty's as well as some land-based Val's and Kates. After the first wave, the second wave "could not find target."

Okay, my point: How come I couldn't land a single shell on any of the carriers facing my battleships, while the air force homes in on them like bees to honey?

[Erik Rutins]

First, good job catching those TFs! Did you see a message as the battle opened saying "(Allied Commander) disperses TF and evades" or something to that effect? The default reaction of a carrier TF when engaged in combat is for the escorts to do everything possible to engage and delay while the carrier burns out its engines heading away from you. If this was at night, it definitely stands an excellent change of getting away (particularly from the slower battleships).

I did catch a carrier TF once with a BB, but only put one shell into it and that was with the opening salvo.

Regards,

- Erik

[Piiska]

Pursuing enemy carriers with my surface task forces is the dearest hobby of mine. It usually involves sending several small taskforces to a scattered area in the hope of hitting the right hex where the pray is going to be. I have played UV as Japanese and Allied, and altogether I have managed to initiate a surface combat against a carrier task force about 5 or 6 times. Usually the fights have been between 1 or 2 CA and few destroyers against a badly damaged CV with few DD escorts. Although once I managed to accidentally hit 2 CVs+ the normal CLAA and destroyer escorts with Yamato& Haruna and 2 Kongos.

The results, however, have always been the same you described in your scenario. I have always put such results down to Battle of Samar factor. As we know, in that battle Johnston, Heerman, Hoel, Dennis & co managed to save the escort carriers from destruction with an incredible act of bravery and luck, by fighting like maniacs. I believe that this has been coded in to the game in such a way that any escorting force the carriers have sacrifice themselves, while the carriers make a run for it.

I know it is frustrating to shoot destroyers and such while the CVs are left alone, but hey, what can you do if you can’t get past them quickly enough?

I have cursed this many times thinking to myself: “WTF??!! I have heavy cruisers that have speed of 32 and the carrier is obviously crippled and can’t possibly go faster than 14. How come I can’t catch it?” Thinking again, such a speed difference is not that far from what was the speed difference between the CVEs and the pursuing BBs and CAs in the Battle of Samar. The historical results of that battle are very similar to ones I have experienced in my attempts while playing either as Japanese or Allied.

Of course we can ask the question should every engagement between CVs and surface forces end to the same results as the Battle of Samar? I believe not, but it definitely makes sense that the escorts do everything to keep the carriers out of the harms way.

One though that occurred to me was it would be really cool to simulate Battle of Samar by allowing the carriers that are under attack to mount disorganized air raids during the surface combat engagement. Not that they would have to be displayed or anything, but messages on the action screen telling “Yamato hit by 500lb bomb” “Kongo turns away to avoid torpedoes” Liscombe Bay lays smoke, target obscured", would give make such fights close to an ecstatic experience (I do have a life by the way and I’m not a weirdo…I suppose)

It would require new coding and everything, but making the surface combats including carriers as special fights that last longer and involve airplane use, could definitely be worth while -especially for the WITP. Maybe such fights would calculate distance from CA’s to CV’s more accurately and give reports to the player how close the big score is and what makes them to divert from the path -like avoiding torpedoes and bad visibility due to smoke the pray is laying.

The Battle of Samar has always been my favorite of all the sea battles through history and it would be jolly good indeed to include them in the game engine in some way.

Ps. Bugger. It seems that Erik managed to reply meanwhile I was writing mine

[ADavidB]

I guess that the orders in the South Pacific were different than for the Germans off of Norway ( where the Germans made no mistake about sinking the carrier they caught up with ).

Dave Baranyi

[Sonny]

THis heroism happened in a game I was playing. Two Japanese DDs stood tall and protected quite a few APs. None of the APs was hit but both DDs went down - one with 98 shell hits!:eek:

[denisonh]

As the USN in two of my PBEM games, I have put IJN carriers to the bottom with surface TFs one 3 occaisons. When I guessed right and found them, I sank 'em. No problemo.

[panda124c]

What... you did not notice the new port holes in the CV's??????

This is more of an air game as opposed to a surface game.

[denisonh]

Yea, installed by the USN!:D


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Night Time Surface Combat, near Irau at 42,43

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Shell hits 2
CV Soryu, Shell hits 32, and is sunk
CV Junyo
CVL Ryujo
CS Nisshin
DD Yudachi, and is sunk
DD Samidare, Shell hits 48, and is sunk
DD Wakaba, and is sunk
DD Shirakumo, Shell hits 18, and is sunk
DD Murakumo, Shell hits 22, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CA Northampton, Shell hits 1
CA Louisville
CL Phoenix, on fire, heavy damage
CL Honolulu
DD Meredith, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Ralph Talbot
DD Henley
DD Porter, on fire, heavy damage
DD Selfridge, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 40,35

Japanese Ships
CV Hiryu, Shell hits 18, on fire, heavy damage
DD Kasumi, Shell hits 4, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CA Portland
CA San Francisco, Shell hits 1
CA Vincennes
CL Nashville
DD Ellet
DD Mahan
DD Dunlap
DD Fanning
DD MacDonough


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rlc27]

I was just hoping that those Pagoda masts might've come in handy, and that the 27 mile range of Yamato's big guns would be worthwhile. Even if the escorts do protect the CV's and CVE's, why can't the commander just say, okay, all guns on that fleeing carrier? My TF made it through several air raids only to stop pursuing the carriers when they get real close? And I don't care how brave the escorts are, 4 destroyers, 2 CLAA's, and 1 CA just DO NOT match up to 5 BB's, about 12 assorted CA's and CL's, and a bunch of destroyers!

Captain of Yamato: "Ensign, we need to get that carrier. Prepare to fire the wave motion gun!"

[XPav]

When Yamato and its fellow BBs went after the CVEs off Samar, they didn't do so hot, partly because of the annoying air attacks and party because the DDs and DEs really went after the BBs.

[rlc27]

I guess that's logical--if I were a DD skipper and my sworn duty was to protect those carriers, I would have driven at them like mad. And I suppose BB's wouldn't want to get so close to them because of the torps.

[von Murrin]

I don't have to combat report, but I recently did something similar. I'm playing as the IJN, and the Allied AI got a little cocky and left 3 CV TF's sitting just within sailing range of a fast SC TF from Shortland. I took a huge gamble and sent 3 Kongo class BB's, 6 CA's, and about 12 DD's set to "Patrol/Do Not Retire" after them during thunderstorms.

It payed well as they arrived during the day and all US air ops were cancelled due to weather. Tanaka made good and successively engaged 3 CV TF's for 3 rounds each. I'm guessing that the first group was commanded by Spruance as the screen put up a fierce fight (he does have a decent surface rating), taking out several destroyers, but getting pounded in return. Opening range was 22k yards. One 14" shell slammed into Hornet. The US lost 1 CA and 3 DD's for 3 of my DD's.

The second group was caught at about 10k yards and Tanaka opened with a torpedo salvo (YES!!! ) Lexington took two, as did Atlanta. Lexington then proceeded to take no less than 6 14" hits, and sank in the third round. I lost a CA and a DD for a CV, CLAA, and 4 DD's.

The third group was engaged at 20k yards with Tanaka achieving surprise, and Enterprise took 16 hits from BB's and CA's in the first round. The next two rounds were a bloody mess in which Haruna was badly torpedoed, 2 of my CA's pounded into flaming wrecks, and most of my DD's sustaining various and significant amounts of damage for a CV, 2 CA's, a CL, and 5 DD's in return.

All in all, I lost a CA and 6 DD's, with a BB, 3 CA's, and 6 DD's on their way back to Tokyo. Yamaguchi came down to clean up, so I believe the final tally for me will be 3 CV's, 4 CA's, a CL, 2 CLAA's, and 14 DD's.

[rlc27]

Bravo!

So I guess you didn't issue the special glasses to your TF commanders.

:rolleyes:

[von Murrin]

No.

I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that daylight means "if you can see it, you can hit it". Also, Having Tanaka in charge of a TF of ships carefully selected for their daylight experience made a huge difference.

In my experience, you only get to blaze away at CV's during the first round. After that, it's assumed their making flank in the opposite direction and you're tied up with the escorts. For those reasons, I believe that a good, agressive commander, high experience, and a preference for daylight engagements are the keys to nailing CV's with gunfire.

[rlc27]

I think that daytime is the key. Do you know if whether or not the name of the ship is visible under it has anything to do with the accuracy of the firing solution on that ship? Because in my scenario above, the Hornet's name didn't even appear, but that of the escorts did.

[Erik Rutins]

Yes, if the Hornet's name didn't show up at all it means she wasn't even spotted. You hit the escort screen and never actually got near enough to see or target the carrier with the escorts keeping you busy while the Hornet retired.

Regards,

- Erik

[WussGawd]

Originally posted by rlc27
Well, my fleet carriers were out of torpedoes or something, and scurrying away, while the Hornet and three CVE's were creeping up to "my" base at Lunga, no doubt up to no good. I *happened* to have five battlewagons, including none other
than the great grey ladies Yamato and Musashi, as well as a couple of Kongos and Nagato, all of them sitting in Lunga harbor (hastily improved). I thought, well, why not send them on a mad dash at the carriers, who knows what'll happen?

**Interesting after action report SNIPPED for Brevity**

Okay, my point: How come I couldn't land a single shell on any of the carriers facing my battleships, while the air force homes in on them like bees to honey?

Well, the Battle of Samar, which is really the only time that a surface TF caught a Carrier Task Force at night, looked a lot like this.

Standard combat tactics in this sort of engagement, IMHO, would look very much like convoy escort tactics when the Germans used to sortie their BBs & BCs after the Arctic convoys...drive the CAs, CLs, & DDs straight at the BBs to buy time while the carriers (merchies) scatter.

Clearly the AI thinks this way, which makes some amount of sense. I'd be curious to see what effect different carrier TF or surface TF Admirals might have on this.

Stu:D