Driel-Heveadorp ferry

[skarp]

Hi

Just read Ryan's "A Bridge Too Far" and combining that with the account "Battle of the Rhine" (Robin Neillands) it seems clear that a decent ferry between Driel and Heveadorp was available to 1st AB until it was removed (or destroyed) late in the battle.

Is there any reason this has not been featured in HTTR? It would add to 1st AB's options.

Cheers
skarp

[jimcarravall]

ORIGINAL: skarp

Hi

Just read Ryan's "A Bridge Too Far" and combining that with the account "Battle of the Rhine" (Robin Neillands) it seems clear that a decent ferry between Driel and Heveadorp was available to 1st AB until it was removed (or destroyed) late in the battle.

Is there any reason this has not been featured in HTTR? It would add to 1st AB's options.

Cheers
skarp

If I recall correctly, the ferry existed, but it was not known to the British because the intelligence service discounted any information provided by the Dutch resistance movement. The bridge existed, except it wasn't shown on the maps used by the British to command and control the forces landed around Arnhem.

[skarp]

Cornelius Ryan thinks it was known to the Allies prior to Market:

"Grimly Frost’s men looked across the Arnhem bridge. How strong were the Germans holding the southern end? Even now, A Company believed there was a chance of seizing the southern end by a surprise attack across the river, if only the men and boats could be found. But that opportunity had passed. In one of the great ironies of the Arnhem battle, the Lower Rhine could have been crossed within the first hour of landing. Exactly seven miles west, at the village of Heveadorp—through which Frost’s battalion had marched en route to their objectives—a large cable ferry, capable of carrying automobiles and passengers, had operated back and forth all day on its normal passage across the Lower Rhine between Heveadorp on the north bank and Driel on the south. Frost knew nothing about the ferry. Nor was it ever listed as one of Urquhart’s objectives. In the meticulous planning of Market-Garden an important key to the taking of the Arnhem bridge—the ferry at Driel—had been totally overlooked. * * In the official orders issued to Urquhart, no reference to the Driel ferry as an objective seems to exist. R.a.f. reconnaissance photographs, used at briefings, show it clearly and one must assume that at some stage of the planning it was discussed. However, General Urquhart, when I interviewed him on the subject, told me “I can’t recall that the ferry ever came up.” When Urquhart finally learned of the ferry’s existence, it was too late to be of any use. Says Urquhart, “By that time I did not have enough men to put across the river.” In oral orders, however, the engineers were warned that “the seizure of all ferries, barges and tugs becomes of paramount importance to assist the subsequent advance of XXX Corps.” Obviously, however, in the last-minute stages of the planning these orders apparently carried lower priority, for they were never formally issued. “No one told us about the ferry at Driel,” Colonel Frost told the author, “and it could have made all the difference.”"

Frost's and Urquhart's apparent ignorance doesn't really explain its absence though from our game though.

[jimcarravall]

ORIGINAL: skarp

. . .

Frost's and Urquhart's apparent ignorance doesn't really explain its absence though from our game though.

I recall a discussion on "friendly intelligence" as an aspect of Fog of War.

We take for granted that friendly forces do not have full information on enemy force locations, strengths, and organization.

To a smaller extent, the same applied to friendly forces' real time knowledge of geographic locations, and peer units' combat capabilities.

Perhaps another aspect of the game is the difference between the known geography of a combat arena, and the knowledge of the geography available to combat forces.

If you put the ferry on the map, it'll be used and skew the combat balance a scenario maker seeks before offering adjustments to favor one side.

"Balance" is obtained by first constructing the battle as it historically took place, and seeing if the results obtained during game play against the AI approach those which could be expected based on the historical record.

Without knowing the cost in terms of computing power, programming, and the background research necessary to implement it, there may be room to allow for a "real" geographic map to exist, but the player would only view what was contained on combat maps developed at the time the battle started.

A friendly force could "discover" the Driel Ferry (as was done late in the MG campaign), but that would be dependent on how effectively the human commander scouts inside the terrain portrayed on his 'combat' map.

[simovitch]

This ferry is in the game in an "unconstructed" state. Note that it was not a bridge but a cable-operated ferry that could easily have been disabled by either side. If either side wants to use this ferry they will have to invest some engineers to fix it up. We figured this would be the best way to represent these crossings along the Neder Rijn within the game mechanics.

[jimcarravall]

ORIGINAL: simovitch

This ferry is in the game in an "unconstructed" state. Note that it was not a bridge but a cable-operated ferry that could easily have been disabled by either side. If either side wants to use this ferry they will have to invest some engineers to fix it up. We figured this would be the best way to represent these crossings along the Neder Rijn within the game mechanics.

Thanks.

Makes sense. Didn't consider it was the ferry when I clicked on the impassible bridges north of Driel.

Using that method is a lot easier than what I was pondering with the different "situational awareness" views.

[skarp]

ORIGINAL: simovitch

This ferry is in the game in an "unconstructed" state. Note that it was not a bridge but a cable-operated ferry that could easily have been disabled by either side. If either side wants to use this ferry they will have to invest some engineers to fix it up. We figured this would be the best way to represent these crossings along the Neder Rijn within the game mechanics.

Thanks Simovitch. So it's deliberately left out due to game mechanics. Thing is it's not question of investing engineers but bridging equipment of which 1st AB has none of course. Bit of a shame because Frost certainly thought he could have used it. Maybe I'll try modding the map one day to put it in. My success so far in using ferries has been non-existent so maybe it's not that big a deal

[Remmes]

Simovitch' answer sounds just about right. There are multiple stories as to why the ferry operator Peter Hensen made the crossing unusable by either cutting the cable or sinking the vessel. Some stories state that he was forced to do so by the Germans, other say that he did it himself to deny its use to the Germans, the end result was the same. The 'demolition' of the ferry seems to have taken place on september 20th. The need to invest valuable time and resources in-game to get it up and running again appears to be a good way to replicate the historical situation.

I can't help but feel that the crossing didn't get the attention it commanded by the British para's, but in hindsight everything is crystal clear. Had XXX corps broken through in time, as they were expected to do, we wouldn't be discussing this trivial ferry and probably not playing these scenario's...............

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Ramses
I can't help but feel that the crossing didn't get the attention it commanded by the British para's, but in hindsight everything is crystal clear. Had XXX corps broken through in time, as they were expected to do, we wouldn't be discussing this trivial ferry and probably not playing these scenario's...............

While the usual quotation "a bridge too far" seems to be the most popular way of referring to the whole enterprise, I'd dare to say that "a what if too many" is more adequate.

[Arjuna]

Yes and what if puns like that were allowed to gain currency around here. [;)]