Dutch Air Groups

Capt. Harlock · Post by **Capt. Harlock** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 8:51 pm

My compliments to Jeremy for the remarkable work he has done on this game. But I think that one new feature, hard-coding the NEIAF aircraft options, may be unwise. Under version 3.1, the NEIAF is restricted primarily to British bombers and fighters. I don't see the logic in this: with their homeland occupied, the Dutch should have been willing to take airplanes from anyone who would give them good financial terms. And that would mean the Americans.

I've noted before that NEIAF fighter units are not allowed to upgrade to USAAF planes, but are allowed to switch to Wildcats. This in spite of the fact that P-40's were actually shipped to Java in 1942 (but had to be destroyed before they could be re-assembled). Now, I have something to report about NEIAF bomber units: they are not allowed to switch "manually" to USAAF tactical bombers. However, they can "upgrade" to A-20 Havocs if you wait for the computer to give you the option. Also considering that at least one historical squadron that escaped to Australia ended up flying B-25 Mitchells, this makes no sense to me. Does anyone else have info on what planes the NEIAF flew?

screamer · Post by **screamer** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 3:55 am

before the war over 1000!!aircraft where ordered , primarily in the USA only a fraction of these got delivered. b25's and P40's destined for the dutch AF in Java where sendt to australia. Pilots in training escaped. and a DC3 and B25 squadron wasformed they hardly saw any action , based around perth alot of the time in the case of a japanes invasion of western australia. but managed to sink some subs.

Jo van der Pluym · Post by **Jo van der Pluym** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 11:56 pm

Originally posted by Capt. Harlock
Does anyone else have info on what planes the NEIAF flew?

After the fall of Java where 3 Dutch Squadrons in the Pacific
First the 321st Squadron of the MLD (Marine Luchtvaart Dienst = Naval Aviation) with Catalinas.

From 1942 exist the NEIAF 18th Squadron with B-25 Mitchels. This unit was attached to the RAAF.

From end 1943 is there the NEIAF 120th Squadron with P40E Warhawks. This unit was also attached to the RAAF.

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 9:50 am

These groups and more are in the game. If you don't lose them to a base getting overrun with them on it you can keep them forever. Transfer them out BEFORE the base gets overrun, and you'll be safe. Of course knowing exactyly when a task force is going to sail up and land is a bit difficult, but the indonesian bases are pretty much lost causes anyway, unless you have australian or american units, so I err on the safe side and bag a$$ with the air units before the task forces show up.

In version 2.2 and before you could assign pretty much any americal plane type to your dutch groups. My surviving groups (just about all of them) ended up mostly in australia and ambon, where thhey eventually got to very high experience levels.

screamer · Post by **screamer** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:02 pm

heheh that only happens to me Vs AI i almost every time withdraw the dutch fleet to australia because it cant do any good in indonesia anyway as long as there are japanese aircraft present

Aussie · Post by **Aussie** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 3:51 am

The Dutch air groups start with very low experience levels , and training them in the few months before the inevitable doesn't make much difference. Even hoarding the groups on say Java, doesn't seem to be effective, as all it takes is one carrier strike and the airforce is kaput anyway. Making a stand at Timor is an ok ploy, but by then you have already lost the resrouce/oil rich DEI bases.

Dan

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:59 am

As the allies, you don't need the oil & resources. Denying them to Japan for as long as possible is nice, but not at the expense of the air groups. As soon as the 1st Air Fleet shows uo, all the Dutch groups bag a$$ to Australia or Ambon / Timor where they have some hope of not having their base invaded out from under them. I keep them on combat missions, attacking supplies, bases, airfields, ground troops, the like, at any reachable base. They gain experience quickly this way.

I keep the ABDA fleet on react out of Jave until it gets bad then I retire them to western australia where I still keep them on react. Almost all of indonesia can fall, because it will against a determined AI or player, but If I can save the air groups and some of the ships, I'll do that any day.

The dutch ground units, they are expendable and not worth losses to transport shipping to evacuate them.

Aussie · Post by **Aussie** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:22 am

Ranger-75, I agree with you. Also I think that a conducting a skillful strategic (& fighting!) withidrawal in the game is much harder than being on the offensive. What do you think?

Whie the allied player doesn't need the DEI oil/resources for the economy, they are worth victory points. But having airgroups overrun would cost victory points too...

mdiehl · Post by **mdiehl** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:14 pm

I agree with Ranger. The best early war strategy for the Allies is to fall back to positions where you've good interior lines, adequate basing, and a prayer of at least air-parity. Saving the NEI air groups and anything else you can get out also has the added bonus of denying kill VP to the Japanese player.

An oft-overlooked aspect is saving HQs. I always at least try to get Asiatic Fleet out without destruction. It is a very useful operational planning source for naval actions subordinate to SWPAC. Having it around saves the Allies lots of headaches throughout the war.

showboat1 · Post by **showboat1** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 11:43 pm

I couldn't agree more with mdiehl on this, except for one thing. Let ABDA get captured. It is useless and a nuisance. I don't think they are capable of any offensive operations so you might as well throw'em to the wolves.

Capt. Harlock · Post by **Capt. Harlock** » Fri Nov 01, 2002 1:20 am

Strategy and tactics are all very well, but let's get back to the original point of the thread. Should the NEIAF groups be restricted to "Commonwealth" aircraft, or should they be allowed to fly American planes as well? I believe they should: no political toes get stepped on because the Free Dutch do not belong to the British Commonwealth. And I can't see the pilots refusing to fly P-40's but somehow accepting F4F's!

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Fri Nov 01, 2002 10:50 am

I used to just let Asiatic Fleet fall, but now I am the wiser.
I tend to keep ABDA, because it CAN be used offensively, you have to have a good commander and wait until your weekly PP allocations rise up.

This is a secondary theater area, because it is way off the direct path to Japan. The subs and later long range air can isolate this area and basically deny the bulk of the materials to Japan. I tend to only conduct limited operations to keep Japanese land based air from hitting Australia.

I thought that ABDA was supposed to be "disbanded" by the game, the manual strongly hints at this, but hints that Malay AG & asiatic fleet do NOT re-appear if destroyed, but I never saw an HQ "disbanded" by the computer.

And, Porten can make a good commander, if he keeps at the job long enough, the battles will eventually up his ratings to the 7-8-9 level.

screamer · Post by **screamer** » Fri Nov 01, 2002 3:36 pm

Originally posted by Aussie
The Dutch air groups start with very low experience levels , and training them in the few months before the inevitable doesn't make much difference. Even hoarding the groups on say Java, doesn't seem to be effective, as all it takes is one carrier strike and the airforce is kaput anyway. Making a stand at Timor is an ok ploy, but by then you have already lost the resrouce/oil rich DEI bases.

Dan

i always fight to the last man for timor as it is the gateway to australia, in my eyes, port moresby is the same but invading with that as jumpoffpoint will only let you fight more aircraft

mdiehl · Post by **mdiehl** » Fri Nov 01, 2002 8:31 pm

I try to keep all the HQs around. Having them causes no harm. Later in the war, their PP can be quite useful. If you can get a couple of Malay brigades and all the Dutch wastrel bns and divisions in one place and let them dig in and train for a while, ABDA can at least force the Japanese player to make a really serious, dedicated, time consuming effort that burns fuel and distracts him from other objectives, rather than brushing all the ABDA units aside like straw (as happens if you do not consolidate and concentrate them).

A good Japanese player won't let ABDA, Malaya AG or Asiatic Fleet get away if he can help it. A good Allied player will make sure that no one important is the c/o of an HQ that is about to be captured (can't be relocated to safe climes).

Oh yeah, and Dutch air groups should be allowed to fly any model of a/c to which the Allied player assigns them. US, UK or Aussie.

Dutch Air Groups

Dutch Air Groups

Re: Dutch Air Groups