Operation Weserübung

[EUBanana]

Any tips from the old hands on how to achieve a conquest of Norway in a timely and not overly resource intensive manner in 1940 as Adolf?

Assuming you could hoover Norway up fairly easily than Narvik seems to be a prize worth the war. However, I've tried it a couple of times as Germany (against myself [:D]) and it always seems to very badly for Fritz. The CW can reinforce practically at will. The Germans can only easily land in hexes by the Baltic, which are few. The Germans only have one AMPH unless you build more, and no marines unless you build them, and ideally I'd rather not have to. And given these extreme limitations of German sealift, the Norwegians are pretty tough even before any reinforcement.

My thinking so far is that it simply cannot be done without a port, and that means control of the North Sea, which is extremely hard to achieve for the Germans.

[Centuur]

Well, historically it wasn't a walk over at all in Norway. There was heavy fighting with heavy losses on the German side. If the Allies wouldn't have evacuated Narvik (when there wasn't any military pressure to do so at the time, only political pressure with France being overrun at that time), I doubt if the Germans would have been able to retake the port...

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Any tips from the old hands on how to achieve a conquest of Norway in a timely and not overly resource intensive manner in 1940 as Adolf?

Assuming you could hoover Norway up fairly easily than Narvik seems to be a prize worth the war. However, I've tried it a couple of times as Germany (against myself [:D]) and it always seems to very badly for Fritz. The CW can reinforce practically at will. The Germans can only easily land in hexes by the Baltic, which are few. The Germans only have one AMPH unless you build more, and no marines unless you build them, and ideally I'd rather not have to. And given these extreme limitations of German sealift, the Norwegians are pretty tough even before any reinforcement.

My thinking so far is that it simply cannot be done without a port, and that means control of the North Sea, which is extremely hard to achieve for the Germans.

In reguards to invasions what options are you comfortable with?

Just offhand I would suggest in 1940 use Paratroops (Fallschirmjäger).

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Honestly, even if you are playing with CBVs, which a I understand it, MWiF hasn't implemented yet, I don't see what in Norway can possibly be worth giving an extra 15 cp and 2 transports to the British. But if you're really determined to do so, here's what I'd suggest. Bear in mind these are troops that are going to be diverted away from France right when the weather's turning good, another reason to scrap this whole idea.


You will need 1 para, a couple of navs, your fleet in Kiel, 2 fairly strong infantry, and some stukas in Kristianstaad. Italy should already be in the war, to help you with the number of navs you'll need.


Load up a pair of divisions (your starting inf and the SS inf most likely) into cruisers in Kiel, annd sortie out in force to the 3 box of the North Sea, on a naval impulse. Hide under your starting flying boat, and curse the fact that you don't have any twin engine fighters that can get into the 3 box. Meanwhile, the para and the supporting stukas should be in northern Denmark. You'll want your transport and amph with supporting units in Stettin. (Take a naval or a combined to do this)

Hope he doesn't scatter your fleet counterattacking in the North Sea. If he's left his carriers in say, Plymouth, this can get very ugly very fast.

2nd axis impulse, hoping for good weather, both you and Italy declare war on Norway. The Norweigans only start with two units, and if you have a Ju-52 in the hex adjacent to Kristanstaad, he can't guard all three ports you can hit with the Para. Hop into whichever one is open, and bring in reinforcements next impulse with your transport and amph. FOcus on securing Oslo, and you can take your time to get to Narvik; it won't be important until the war with the Soviets starts.

The important thing is that if you control Kiel and Copenhagen, any ships he puts in Oslo, his only major port, can't leave. And of the minors, you want to port strike, or threaten to invade, and blockade the rest. If you can take Oslo in one turn, the face down units who can't leave are stuck, since a completely conquered minor country has all of its naval units still in the country destroyed. So make sure you can keep the shipping still stuck in their ports by the end of the turn, and pray that the Brits don't kill you all.



Like I said though, it's a shaky plan. Norway just isn't worth all that much. So what if you can stash some submarines a sea zone closer to the arctic route? You're going to need an HQ to keep them in supply, and a fighter to protect them from British carriers amusing themselves, and IMO, those resources could be better spent elsewhere, even if the Allies gave you Norway on a silver platter.

[brian brian]

There are a couple ways you can go, though Ur_Vile_Wedge brings up a great, non-historical, aid to such a campaign - Italian help.

Maybe the best way to accomplish it would be an aggressive opening in the Med. This could draw enough CW assets there to reduce their abilities to intervene in Norway. Some CW players might drop the BEF on the Continent and then disperse a lot of their lift away from the UK for a few turns. The turn any surviving BEF evacuate France (if they even do, not a given), might also be a good turn to attack Norway.

Normally an Axis player will conquer Denmark on the first turn to keep the Allies from raiding the Baltic. The real Allies would not have done that, too high risk, with little chance of ships returning from such a raid. But gamers aren't commanding human lives, just pixels on a screen now.

So once the Baltic is secure, the Germans can use a 2 impulse operation. First their AMPH and TRS move out into the Baltic on one impulse. The next impulse some fleet elements carrying divisions on SCS sail into the North Sea. But of course, the Royal Navy will likely be waiting for them at that point. They could try and dodge the interception just in the North Sea, or try and dodge a second one in the Barents Sea to reach Narvik (where a Norwegian unit might be waiting for them anyway). To invade in the Barents, divisions would have to start stacked with SCS in a port, but to invade from the North Sea, the divisions could start anywhere on the North Sea Coast. The weather would have to be good in the Arctic on the 2nd impulse - not much certainty there.

After some initial luck with weather, an interception roll, or possibly moving first in a turn in 1940 with little Royal Navy on patrol in the North Sea, the Axis will have to fight at sea some to finish the campaign. They do have a variety of fighters that can reach the 2 box, and with their NAVs these can achieve control of a sea zone in 1940, particularly where there aren't a lot of French ships to absorb losses.

There is one other option, very rare a German player would try this - use one of their O-Chits to invade with a Super Combined Impulse. This would require several divisions hanging around the North Sea coast, and a couple more in port, so the CW could have some inkling of this. This would give them a chance to overrun a good amount of the Norwegian shipping and reduce the amount joining the Allied side at least some.

But realistically, the Allies are usually going to be able to achieve more in Norway than the Germans in 1940, and most German players leave it alone as a result. It is a lot of shipping to give to the Allied side, which more than offsets the improved abilities to attack Murmansk convoys.

In the middle of the game this might change, though more likely via an Allied invasion. At that point everything is reversed ... the Germans will be waiting with sea lift and infantry reserves on the Baltic coast.

There will likely be continued changes to the situation of Norway in the game in future editions. As it stands now, things are set up to keep the game simple in this area, in such an already sprawling game.

[EUBanana]

Interesting.

I didn't think of the Italian help idea, but paradropping the one free port and trying to hold the North Sea briefly seemed to be the only way that had even a remote chance of working. And I do mean 'remote'.

It seems to my admittedly limited play so far that a couple of Commonwealth CVs in Plymouth pretty much ruins the Kriegsmarine, at least in the early game. When playing against myself the CW always has at least 2 CVs in Plymouth during this timeframe, and every time I've tried it the RN has punished the Kriegsmarine horribly if they try and contest the North Sea even briefly.

Even after you've conquered Norway then it's not a whole lot of use unless you control Narvik, and the CW can garrison that far more easily than the Germans can even then.

So I guess the whole plan is a bust really. I shall write Norway off as the Axis. [:'(]

[brian brian]

The Royal Navy's carriers do give them an early advantage - but they can be more fragile than you might think. The Axis can build a few additional assets to fight them by the time the middle of 1940 is reached, for one, and the actual factors on the British carrier planes aren't that strong. In air-to-air combat with Axis land-based air their CV planes can disappear fast.

And once the Axis doesn't need to invade an enemy hex, they have a number of options on how to fight at sea in conjunction with air cover. There is a lot of risk/reward built into the naval system, and though the Royal Navy outnumbers the Axis, the advantage isn't so great that the Axis have no chance of winning battles.

[markb50k]

Just wondering, what about a goal of just getting the Resource? Cant you keep your invasions/para limited to the Baltic with a limited scope of taking Kristiansand/Oslo plus the resource, then halting and defending? Dont have the game in front of me so dont know if there is rail from the resource to the Baltic port...

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: brian brian
The Royal Navy's carriers do give them an early advantage - but they can be more fragile than you might think. The Axis can build a few additional assets to fight them by the time the middle of 1940 is reached, for one, and the actual factors on the British carrier planes aren't that strong. In air-to-air combat with Axis land-based air their CV planes can disappear fast.

Yeah. I've always avoided trying to build up Germany's naval power, being focused instead on the ultimate prize of Russia. And while the Bf110s are dual use and good in the North Sea, the CW have Beaufighters and Beauforts and suchlike, so they seem able to
match the Germans pretty well.

I should try some more naval builds as Germany perhaps and see if a Sealion can work.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: markb50k

Just wondering, what about a goal of just getting the Resource? Cant you keep your invasions/para limited to the Baltic with a limited scope of taking Kristiansand/Oslo plus the resource, then halting and defending? Dont have the game in front of me so dont know if there is rail from the resource to the Baltic port...

I tried that first but I think even taking Oslo is hard. There is no Norwegian port in the Baltic besides Oslo. You can AMPH something big, like a 7 factor infantry, onto the beach next to Oslo, and then move the paras over there too, and SCS the SS unit over. So that's 12 factors of ground troops, but that's all you can get in one turn if you confine yourself to the Baltic.

Then you can park the Kriegsmarine in the Baltic, all your Stukas in Denmark, and go all out with the shore bombardment/tactical air support. It's still not enough for more than a hail mary chance though.

But it doesn't get you Narvik, because the CW can land there whenever they want more or less at their leisure, and it doesn't always work, and the CW can still reinforce at will - and it's on a knife edge before the CW lifts a finger. One bad weather roll and its over.

It also means mucking about with combined actions during 1940s sunshine, which is probably better spent on dealing with France.

I suppose you could go for Norway after France has fallen, with the CW navy more stretched...

[markb50k]

ok, i didnt realize Kristiansand was not on the Baltic. Like i said, dont have the game in front of me and the map looks like it borders Baltic.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Unless they changed the map from the board game, Kristiansand is on the Baltic. It opens up to both sea zones, which makes it quite a nice little port.

[Extraneous]

Germanys objective in Norway is Oslo. Always remember the weather is going to be a major factor.

If Copenhagen has fallen then the Baltic Sea is an Axis lake.

Germany will need to:
Rebase aircraft to Denmark to support operations in Norway.
Take a Combined action to get its Naval units and Land units at sea.


Strategy Discussions ~ AI for MWIF - Norway ~ peskpesk post# 7 shows the best defense of Norway in 1939. But in 1940 Germany can paradrop directly into Oslo.

While Germany cannot directly invade Oslo from the Baltic Sea (there is no all sea hex side to invade from). Germany can use the Baltic Sea to Shore bombard Oslo.

Invasion defense

The notional unit has 1 combat factor, modified by:
• +1 if it is a city hex;
• +1 if the hex is in the home country of the major power that controls the hex;
• +1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps or army;
• + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;
• -1 if it cannot trace a basic supply path of any length; and
• -1 if surprised (see 15. Surprise).

The notional unit is treated like a normal unit for all purposes during combat except that they only have a ZoC into their own hex and are always face-down.

Rolling dice
The attacker now rolls a die. Add 1 to the roll for each face-down land unit defending in the hex. Subtract 1 from the roll for each odds level below 1:2.

You need a port?
Kristinsand is the only port on the Baltic Sea in Norway.

The notional unit starts with a combat factor of 1.
Kristinsand is not a city hex.
Norway is not a Major power.
+1 the notional unit is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps or army.
+ the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit
the notional unit is in supply.
-1 the notional unit is surprised.

The notional unit has a modified combat factor of 1 plus the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit.


Invading

Major Power Activities Limits Notes:
A naval movement is the movement of 1 task force (see 11.4 Naval movement).

Each unit which invades counts as 1 land move while the invasion itself counts as 1 land attack.

When you invade with Land units the are halved (unless they are marine capable units). But using Shore bombardment and Air support you can in effect triple the strength of your invading forces.

11.16.2 Shore bombardment
Shore bombarding SCS add their bombardment factors to an attack. Reduce the bombardment factor of each SCS by the bombardment modifier in its section of the sea-box (see weather effects on bombardment ~ 8.2.7 Land combat).

You can’t bombard:
With SCS in the ‘0’ section (note the ‘none’ there).
Any hex in storm or blizzard.

Halve the (reduced) bombardment factors if the hex is a forest, jungle or swamp hex.

Ignore any shore bombardment factors (after any reduction and halving) that exceed the total (modified) combat factors of the attacking land units.

(Invading Land combat factors / 0.5) = Invasion combat factors.
Invasion combat factors + Shore Bombardment factors (not to exceed Invasion combat factors) + Air support factors (not to exceed Invasion combat factors)

(2 Invading Land combat factors / 0.5) = 1 Invasion combat factor.
1 Invasion combat factor + 1 Shore Bombardment factors + 1 Air support factors = 3 combat factors

The odds are 3 to 1 plus 1 to the die roll (or 70% chance of success on the 1d10 assault chart) and takes 1 land attack and 2 land moves.



Germany doesn't want to wait until 1940?
Using peskpesk's defense Germany can invade Kristinsand or the hex adjacent to Oslo the odds are the same.

Germany doesn't need a port if it has a Land unit available and uses a debark activity. Germany can debark a Land unit directly into the invasion hex and it counts as 1 land move.


Remember divisions only exert a ZoC in the hex they are in.


The invasion is 100% successful
If the Norwegian Mountain unit is placed in Kristinsand then invade the hex next to Oslo the notional unit there would have a modified combat factor of Zero.
If the Norwegian Ski division is placed in Oslo invade the woods where peskpesk suggests the Norwegian Ski division be placed then the notional unit there would have a modified combat factor of Zero.


Norwegian Conquest
The end of the turn Norway suffers a complete conquest.

After Norway is conquered if no Allied Naval units are in the North Sea or Norwegian Sea and the Allies have do not control Narvik then Germany can embark/debark a Land unit directly into Narvik and counts as 1 land move.


Sweden

German units can move, and trace supply, into and through Sweden if Sweden is neutral and if there is at least 1 other German unit in each of Finland and Norway.

If Sweden is neutral, no German unit can end a step in Sweden.

Summary

All Allied and Axis units in Norway are not in France.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: markb50k

ok, i didnt realize Kristiansand was not on the Baltic. Like i said, dont have the game in front of me and the map looks like it borders Baltic.

I did not realise it was

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: markb50k

ok, i didnt realize Kristiansand was not on the Baltic. Like i said, dont have the game in front of me and the map looks like it borders Baltic.

I did not realise it was

I dont either thats why the link to AI for MWIF - Norway [:D]