CW oil reorg

[celebrindal]

We've been doing this for a couple of turns and thought perhaps there was something in the oil reorg that we were missing that is allowing this to happen.
But when the Japanese tried the same thing due to not getting convoys out due to a turn end we realized something is wrong.

The brits don't have any convoy points near NEI, closest is in the sea area off Burma, and only 1, but yet get use the NEI oil to reorg their units.
The Japs have cp's in the sea area and idled the oil to bring the china resources in instead but don't get the option to use the NEI oil they are getting to reorg.

Using 1.07

[gautebirkeli]

This is quite all right. It seems like NEI is active, and I presume NEI is aligned to CW. Then CW can use the oil for reorg on location and does not need to transport it. For reorg, CW only need to trace a basic supply path (of unlimited length) to the oil. In this case through the convoy in bay of Bengal, port in Medan, and overland to Palembang.

Since NEI is not controlled by Japan, the oil is considered trade, and needs to be transported to Japanese territory before it can be used for reorg.

[paulderynck]

The Japanese cannot directly use the NEI oil because it is from a trade agreement. In the Sequence of Play, oil from trade arrives after the Re-org phase. You must receive such oil in Turn 'N' and use it for Re-org in Turn 'N+1'. Also you have to receive it somewhere under your control, so without convoys in place, you'll lose it.

Also it is correct for the CW - providing the Netherlands is aligned to the CW - because you trace to oil for Re-org "like a supply line of unlimited distance". So as long as they have CPs where you say and also have them leading back to land from where they can trace a unit's supply line, then they are golden.

[celebrindal]

Ok will an enemy convoy point stop basic supply?

The reason I ask, is then by your logic I should be able to use the oil from Persia as the Germans to reorg as there were no allied surface units between Germany and Persia.. convoys yes.. and it won't let me use that oil.

[Numdydar]

You do not control Suez so it is blocked. Nor do you have a land route through Turkey.

[Centuur]

No. Basic supply can only be blocked by an enemy SCS or aircraft with an air to sea factor, provided you don't have such a unit in that sea zone too. A CP isn't enough.

[celebrindal]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

You do not control Suez so it is blocked. Nor do you have a land route through Turkey.

Yes but it can swing all the way around the cape etc.. since the basic path can be of any length?

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: celebrindal

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

You do not control Suez so it is blocked. Nor do you have a land route through Turkey.

Yes but it can swing all the way around the cape etc.. since the basic path can be of any length?

Yes.

[celebrindal]

Ok so here's my confusion then.

Game 1: i'm playing the axis. It's M/J 40. The netherlands have been wiped out on the european map, and they went over to the brits. The brits do not have a convoy where they can pull out the NEI oil. They do have one in a seazone adj, but not where the oil is. They are able to use that oil for reorg during the oil step. The persians have been attacked by the Russians a turn previously, and there are no convoy's from germany to Persia. There is a clear set of sea areas from Persia to Germany, but I can't use their oil to reorg.

Game 2: we rebased the queens to Sydney to pick up the unit there, and I can't reorg it as there is apparently no oil that can reach it. The NEI has not been attacked yet, but I obviously do have the Burma oil that I could use. I have a convoy point one sea area away from Aust (one short to run to there;-).

So how is it that only in the one instance the brits are able to use the oil to reorg, while in the other two instances there is no oil reorg option? Thanks.

P.S. I didn't include the Japs in this example because it's been explained above that the Trade oil is showing up after the oil reorg phase..

Thanks.

[Centuur]

Game 1: CW is correct. Are you sure that there aren't any Allied naval or air to sea factor aircraft units on the overseas path of the resource to Germany? Remember, a supply path can't go overseas twice. Also, you can't trace through the Suez Canal. Usually there should be CW convoys around with cruiser escorts in the 0 box. If they are f.e. in the Atlantic and in the Cape Verde Bassin going to the UK, this path is than blocked.

Game 2: You don't need convoy points for reorganisation oil. So I don't know why the Queens can't be reorganised...

Can you zip the saved games and load them up here, so someone can investigate this?

[paulderynck]

I think it depends on whether LOS is being used for these games.

If it is, then a CP in the Bay of Bengal allows the CW to use the NEI oil for re-org (once the Netherlands is aligned to the CW) provided there is a basic supply path - of unlimited distance - that only goes overseas once - to the oil from the unit. It is unlikely there's Axis CPs in all the sea zones needed to get to the Persian oil and supply cannot be traced overland through neutral countries. As for the Queens, it would seem there's no oil in Australia and no overseas supply path (using CPs) to an oil from Australia.

[celebrindal]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I think it depends on whether LOS is being used for these games.

If it is, then a CP in the Bay of Bengal allows the CW to use the NEI oil for re-org (once the Netherlands is aligned to the CW) provided there is a basic supply path - of unlimited distance - that only goes overseas once - to the oil from the unit. It is unlikely there's Axis CPs in all the sea zones needed to get to the Persian oil and supply cannot be traced overland through neutral countries. As for the Queens, it would seem there's no oil in Australia and no overseas supply path (using CPs) to an oil from Australia.

So it just has to have one area of sea, and the rest sorta convoy points to be able to use? If that's so that would explain the issue.. I'm uploading the games.. and yes LoS is being used.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: celebrindal
So it just has to have one area of sea, and the rest sorta convoy points to be able to use?

I'm sorry but I can't understand what you are asking here?

I'll take a look at the saves.

[paulderynck]

So I took a look at the save. Playing with LOS:

1. There's no supply path from any German units to the oil in Persia. There are no axis CPs in the Arabian Sea.
2. There is a supply path from the oil in NEI to all CW possessions except Australia and CW possessions east of Java.
3. Assuming the same situation for Game 2, then the Queens in Sydney have no access to oil unless some is stored in Australia.

[markb50k]

please make sure to explain why the NEI oil can get to the rest of the world.  I dont think the OP understands that the oil can flow to a port in the adjacent sea area (the one to the West of Java).

[Centuur]

When you are using the optional rule "Limited Overseas Supply" a unit is only in supply if there is a convoy or AMPH/TRS in every sea zone it needs to trace supply. So every unit which can trace to a sea zone where a CP is in which links to NEI can use NEI oil for reorganisation...

During Reorganisation, the Queens in Australia need a chain consisting of CP and/or AMPH/TRS to a CW controlled oil resource, since they need to trace a supply path to an CW controlled oil resource (or saved oil point). There aren't any CP's in any sea area around Australia. Now, I presume that there aren't TRS/Amph in those seazones too, so the Queens can't trace to an oil point and therefore they are not reorganised if there isn't a saved oil in Australia itself...

Also, remember that it is enough to trace to a port in northern Sumatra, to get access to the oil in Palembang, since during reorganisation the supply path can be of any length (so no railroads are needed...).

[celebrindal]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Also, remember that it is enough to trace to a port in northern Sumatra, to get access to the oil in Palembang, since during reorganisation the supply path can be of any length (so no railroads are needed...).

This is the part that I'm struggling with. To me this means the convoy line can be as far as needed.. but doesn't the resource still need to somehow get to that sea area?
I was just taking another look at resource shipping incase I had forgotten something and it states that in order to use the resource it either needs to travel a rail line or be on the coastal area to be picked up.

Since the resource is in the south china sea, or rail moved to the east India I don't think it should be usable for reorg.

Otherwise you're saying they can schleep it across the 8 or so hexes, mountains, jungle etc to provide for refueling... but not for building with..

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: celebrindal

Otherwise you're saying they can schleep it across the 8 or so hexes, mountains, jungle etc to provide for refueling... but not for building with..

That's exactly what we are saying - because for re-orging units that need oil the rules say you trace an unlimited basic supply line from the unit to the oil it will use. "Unlimited" covers the "8 or so hexes, mountains, jungle etc" without any rail line, in any weather. But to go overseas (which you may only do once per supply path), since you are playing with LOS, you need a CP/TRS/Amph in every sea zone traversed. And you need a port to allow the overseas supply line to enter/exit any land areas. If there were no ports on Sumatra that touch upon the Bay of Bengal, then you would not be able to trace to the NEI oil, without a CP/TRS/Amph in some other adjacent sea zone.

But also - do not confuse the transportation of resources with the tracing of an unlimited length basic supply line to them. To pick up and transport a resource, you need to rail it and/or for it to be on a coastal hex or have it connected by rail to a port touching upon a sea zone where your convoy chain begins.

[Dabrion]

The "basic supply path of any length to" is a technical artifact of the rules that means to say "not being isolated from". I find it quite clear that way.