Grass Problem

[Mobius]

I think we have a problem with units getting hulldown protection from grass. My new map has lots of grass and I have AT guns in tall grass and brush. So when the AT guns are getting hit, even with APHE, many of the hits are getting 'superstructure hit - deflected'. There is no 'ground deflection' announcement I guess because the lower ray is blocked by the grass and not ground mesh. But the effect is the same as a hulldown. Basically the AT gun is hulldown behind grass. More than half the hits on the AT guns were these deflections.
So then I saved the game and changed the map and took out the grass and resumed the game I didn't get a single superstructure hit-deflected results from hits on AT guns.
We probably didn't notice this before because we were mostly concerned with tanks and its not unusual that tanks get hit and the hull hits are deflected.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

I think we have a problem with units getting hulldown protection from grass. My new map has lots of grass and I have AT guns in tall grass and brush. So when the AT guns are getting hit, even with APHE, many of the hits are getting 'superstructure hit - deflected'. There is no 'ground deflection' announcement I guess because the lower ray is blocked by the grass and not ground mesh. But the effect is the same as a hulldown. Basically the AT gun is hulldown behind grass. More than half the hits on the AT guns were these deflections.
So then I saved the game and changed the map and took out the grass and resumed the game I didn't get a single superstructure hit-deflected results from hits on AT guns.
We probably didn't notice this before because we were mostly concerned with tanks and its not unusual that tanks get hit and the hull hits are deflected.

That's certainly a possibility. It seems I recall we did some work on 'hull-down' condition during one of the later iterations, but perhaps I'm misremembering.

Thanks
Rick

[Mobius]

I guess the game gets a little confused by the grass. It seems to do the hulldown ground deflection ok still.
BTW, I know we didn't outsource to Belarus but isn't 'superstructure' one word?

[Mobius]

I guess the good news is that Tracks may be protected when hull down. The hulldown tanks were hit about 20 times with about 6-7 ground deflections and one track hit. I can't be sure if the track hit came from an angle where the tank wasn't hull down. But when locations 2 and 3 were made track locations there were about 4 out of 20 hits track hits. This means that probably locations 2 and 3 are not excluded when determining a location that is hit when hulldown.

I'm not sure that the grass is giving the tanks hulldown as I had to set them on a hill and shoot upwards at them to get any ground deflections. It may only be the shorter AT guns that grass is really helping.

[Mobius]

I reduced the sighting reduction by 90%, ie. to the range of .01-.05 and the hit blocking by grass is all but eliminated. So I can finish the map.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

I reduced the sighting reduction by 90%, ie. to the range of .01-.05 and the hit blocking by grass is all but eliminated. So I can finish the map.

So how should this be handled though. I would imagine you want tall grass to block LOS, but it seems like what's happening is 'if you can't see it, you can't hit it' which is probably what the programmer went by?

Rick

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Rick

ORIGINAL: Mobius
I reduced the sighting reduction by 90%, ie. to the range of .01-.05 and the hit blocking by grass is all but eliminated. So I can finish the map.

So how should this be handled though. I would imagine you want tall grass to block LOS, but it seems like what's happening is 'if you can't see it, you can't hit it' which is probably what the programmer went by?
Rick

I imagine so. The grass mostly is affecting the low ray which signals hulldown. When the ray was blokced this used to mean some low solid object like ground or gun emplacement blocked the ray. So the unit was protected there. Now with grass blocking the ray as well some way to tell the difference from solid and grass has to be found.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Rick

ORIGINAL: Mobius
I reduced the sighting reduction by 90%, ie. to the range of .01-.05 and the hit blocking by grass is all but eliminated. So I can finish the map.

So how should this be handled though. I would imagine you want tall grass to block LOS, but it seems like what's happening is 'if you can't see it, you can't hit it' which is probably what the programmer went by?
Rick

I imagine so. The grass mostly is affecting the low ray which signals hulldown. When the ray was blokced this used to mean some low solid object like ground or gun emplacement blocked the ray. So the unit was protected there. Now with grass blocking the ray as well some way to tell the difference from solid and grass has to be found.

Well, that should be possible.

Thanks
Rick

[Mobius]

What is kind of funny is that in the book, Panzer Gunner, I used to make my latest map and scenario it said that tall wheat would set off a HE round when fired through it at some tank hiding in it.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

What is kind of funny is that in the book, Panzer Gunner, I used to make my latest map and scenario it said that tall wheat would set off a HE round when fired through it at some tank hiding in it.

Well that seems unlikely, but possible I suppose. I think along with grasses we would also need to check brush?

Thanks
Rick

[Mobius]

One reason the grass hulldown was difficult to detect is because ground deflection feedback is wrong. It gives a clanking sound like armor being hit and causes the tank to button up. It should produce no affect on the tank. It should be like a miss. Maybe though the dust should be near the point were the low ray intersects the ground mesh. That way both the firer and target know what is protecting the target.