USE chits

[celebrindal]

So a quick poll from folks..

How are you finding the new chit system that was introduced in MWiF?

I know that my opponent is bemoaning the fact that he has a pile of 1's....

Anyone else seeing extremes, all 4's or other such crazyiness?

[sanderz]

only played a few turns - nearly all ones - which i thought odd

however, what is the mix of counters being drawn from? and does it change as time progresses?

[celebrindal]

ORIGINAL: sanderz

only played a few turns - nearly all ones - which i thought odd

however, what is the mix of counters being drawn from? and does it change as time progresses?

Well that's why i'm posting the poll.. it was decided that since the computer isn't limited to x number of chits when any are pulled, either for USE or garrison chits for pacts the cpu uses the number rolled to create the chit based on a percentage of what the ratio should be for that particular year. The only issue i see is that it doesn't allow for the pool of numbers to shift... so if you pull a bunch of 1's at the start of the turn, towards the end of the turn you should have a greater chance at a higher number.. with a true random number pool that doens't happen any more.

Case in point.. my opponent is sitting at mid 20's for his entry pools and we are in mid 41, and he hasn't been able to take any actions because of that and as a result his tension is almost zero and can't gear up...

[Extraneous]

I would like to check the math (just for grins) so could you post your opponents US entry chit values in the Ge/It pool and Ja pool?

Just doing a rough calculation (just drawing a chit each turn) your chit values should average approxamately:

2.2 in 1939
1.9 in 1940
2.3 in 1941
2.6 in 1942
2.9 in 1943

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: sanderz

only played a few turns - nearly all ones - which i thought odd

however, what is the mix of counters being drawn from? and does it change as time progresses?

See page 190 of Players Manual volume 2.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I would like to check the math (just for grins) so could you post your opponents US entry chit values in the Ge/It pool and Ja pool?

Just doing a rough calculation (just drawing a chit each turn) your chit values should average approxamately:

2.2 in 1939
1.9 in 1940
2.3 in 1941
2.6 in 1942
2.9 in 1943

For MWIF those numbers are:
2.333
1.789
2.598
3.333
2.865

[Extraneous]

Has somthig changed?

I'm using PonsWiF-AiF-Patif Excel spreadsheet that uses WiFC (World in Flames Clasic), AiF (America in Flames), and the 2007 Modifications to Counter sheet 24.

(Markers = Chits)

Year ~ Total values of all available chits / Total number of chits available = Average chit

1939 ~ 70 / 30 = 2.33333
1940 ~ 101 / 53 = 1.90566
1941 ~ 154 / 68 = 2.7353
1942 ~ 213 / 82 = 2.23171
1943 ~ 274 / 94 = 2.32979

Chits added to the counter mix by year:
1939 (30) ~ Zero x1, One x9, Two x7, Three x6, Four x6, Five x1
1940 (23) ~ Zero x4, One x10, Two x6, Three x3
1941 (15) ~ One x1, Two x3, Three x11
1942 (14) ~ Three x14
1943 (12) ~ Three x12

[celebrindal]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Has somthig changed?

I'm using PonsWiF-AiF-Patif Excel spreadsheet that uses WiFC (World in Flames Clasic), AiF (America in Flames), and the 2007 Modifications to Counter sheet 24.

(Markers = Chits)

Year ~ Total values of all available chits / Total number of chits available = Average chit

1939 ~ 70 / 30 = 2.33333
1940 ~ 101 / 53 = 1.90566
1941 ~ 154 / 68 = 2.7353
1942 ~ 213 / 82 = 2.23171
1943 ~ 274 / 94 = 2.32979

Chits added to the counter mix by year:
1939 (30) ~ Zero x1, One x9, Two x7, Three x6, Four x6, Five x1
1940 (23) ~ Zero x4, One x10, Two x6, Three x3
1941 (15) ~ One x1, Two x3, Three x11
1942 (14) ~ Three x14
1943 (12) ~ Three x12

Yes.. with the new system it is possible, tho low in probability, to draw nothing but 1's for a year... where as with the physcial limitation on the number of 1's as you draw more and more of them the probability of drawing a higher number increases to the point where it should be 100% (assuming chits for garrison and use are from the same pool.)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Has somthig changed?

I'm using PonsWiF-AiF-Patif Excel spreadsheet that uses WiFC (World in Flames Clasic), AiF (America in Flames), and the 2007 Modifications to Counter sheet 24.

(Markers = Chits)

Year ~ Total values of all available chits / Total number of chits available = Average chit

1939 ~ 70 / 30 = 2.33333
1940 ~ 101 / 53 = 1.90566
1941 ~ 154 / 68 = 2.7353
1942 ~ 213 / 82 = 2.23171
1943 ~ 274 / 94 = 2.32979

Chits added to the counter mix by year:
1939 (30) ~ Zero x1, One x9, Two x7, Three x6, Four x6, Five x1
1940 (23) ~ Zero x4, One x10, Two x6, Three x3
1941 (15) ~ One x1, Two x3, Three x11
1942 (14) ~ Three x14
1943 (12) ~ Three x12

From Players Manual Volume 1, Acknowledgments

Nils Andresen and Paul Derynck – Outside of their work as beta testers, these two jointly performed the analysis of US entry chits so the finite pool of chits in the board game could be converted to an infinite distribution for MWiF without altering the basic accumulation of chits in the various US entry pools. Nils did his analysis using statistical theory and Paul wrote a Monte Carlo simulation to empirically test prospective distributions. In concert they arrived at the probability distribution used in MWiF, which both theoretically and empirically mimics the finite pool of chits in the board game. Among other tasks, Nils performed extensive beta testing of naval movement and combat and Paul served as my number one WIF rules guru.

[celebrindal]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Has somthig changed?

I'm using PonsWiF-AiF-Patif Excel spreadsheet that uses WiFC (World in Flames Clasic), AiF (America in Flames), and the 2007 Modifications to Counter sheet 24.

(Markers = Chits)

Year ~ Total values of all available chits / Total number of chits available = Average chit

1939 ~ 70 / 30 = 2.33333
1940 ~ 101 / 53 = 1.90566
1941 ~ 154 / 68 = 2.7353
1942 ~ 213 / 82 = 2.23171
1943 ~ 274 / 94 = 2.32979

Chits added to the counter mix by year:
1939 (30) ~ Zero x1, One x9, Two x7, Three x6, Four x6, Five x1
1940 (23) ~ Zero x4, One x10, Two x6, Three x3
1941 (15) ~ One x1, Two x3, Three x11
1942 (14) ~ Three x14
1943 (12) ~ Three x12

From Players Manual Volume 1, Acknowledgments

Nils Andresen and Paul Derynck – Outside of their work as beta testers, these two jointly performed the analysis of US entry chits so the finite pool of chits in the board game could be converted to an infinite distribution for MWiF without altering the basic accumulation of chits in the various US entry pools. Nils did his analysis using statistical theory and Paul wrote a Monte Carlo simulation to empirically test prospective distributions. In concert they arrived at the probability distribution used in MWiF, which both theoretically and empirically mimics the finite pool of chits in the board game. Among other tasks, Nils performed extensive beta testing of naval movement and combat and Paul served as my number one WIF rules guru.

Oh I didn't say statisticaly the random chits were better or worse.. just that at least with the physical ones you knew eventually you'd have a better chance at bigger numbers [:'(]

[AxelNL]

Well, it reads that that was simulated as well. Which leaves only the human feeling lacking: looking at a slowly diminishing heap of counters, knowing that your turn will eventually come,

When that stream of "1"s happens, know that there is also a lucky guy looking at the opposite happening. That is how statistics is best interpreted, I feel.

[petracelli]

Please tell me I am mis reading this. Use is one of the most important aspects of how a game will pan out and altering it so it is possible for the Us to draw nothing but 1s in my humble opinion based on 20 plus years of wif is not the best thing I have read about MWif. Steve any chance of an option to leave it as per the game with the limited number of chits?

[AxelNL]

ORIGINAL: petracelli

Please tell me I am mis reading this. Use is one of the most important aspects of how a game will pan out and altering it so it is possible for the Us to draw nothing but 1s in my humble opinion based on 20 plus years of wif is not the best thing I have read about MWif. Steve any chance of an option to leave it as per the game with the limited number of chits?

As I interpret above both the distribution per year and the limited number of chits was simulated by the appropriate random distributions. We shouldn't worry, and for the really unlucky: the string of '1's will ultimately stop.

My current game featured in the first turns only 4's until Russia started to grab land. After that happened I had my share of "1"s. I should have frozen Russia in its tracks....

[petracelli]

Ah but I think it will make a big difference. Especially the effect of the chits for the pacts not coming out. It is often a factor a calculation as to the allies as to wether or not to enter the pact between Russia and Japan as it allows you to get through the 40 pot of Use quicker to allow the adding of the 41 chits.

In writing I have just realised with this new system of never running out of chits there are no circumstances by which the 41 chits can be added early. Something that happens quite regularly in the game.

The other thing is there is no balance to the Axis being really aggressive in 1940 as they know what ever they do they cannot empty the chit pool and the allies willing be pulling the rubbish 1940 chits.

Please Steve can we have an option to play it as the game with the limited chit mix. This is a really big deal for USE and if the gear ups and delayed significantly because of it, this will have a major impact on the later war game.

I really want this game to be a success I should add before I get flamed. I have been waiting for this since Adg first advertised it back in the 90s. I have not yet invested as am waiting for net play to be fixed but if there is no way the 41 chits can be added in early this seriously impacts on game balance.

[etsadler]

ORIGINAL: petracelli

Ah but I think it will make a big difference. Especially the effect of the chits for the pacts not coming out. It is often a factor a calculation as to the allies as to wether or not to enter the pact between Russia and Japan as it allows you to get through the 40 pot of Use quicker to allow the adding of the 41 chits.

In writing I have just realised with this new system of never running out of chits there are no circumstances by which the 41 chits can be added early. Something that happens quite regularly in the game.

The other thing is there is no balance to the Axis being really aggressive in 1940 as they know what ever they do they cannot empty the chit pool and the allies willing be pulling the rubbish 1940 chits.

Please Steve can we have an option to play it as the game with the limited chit mix. This is a really big deal for USE and if the gear ups and delayed significantly because of it, this will have a major impact on the later war game.

I really want this game to be a success I should add before I get flamed. I have been waiting for this since Adg first advertised it back in the 90s. I have not yet invested as am waiting for net play to be fixed but if there is no way the 41 chits can be added in early this seriously impacts on game balance.

Certainly every player has different ideas of what makes and breaks a game. I have always felt that making decisions based on the fact that it can be used to manipulate the results, like the Allies accepting a Russo-Japanese pact to intentionally try to run out the 1940 chit pool, is the definition of "gamey". Sure, that is just my opinion, and since I am not the WiF expert many here are, for all I know Harry Rowland intentionally designed the pool of chits exactly to support the scenarios you mentioned, and not just because there was only so much space on the counter sheet.

I don't say that to criticize, but to say that I think the unlimited chit pool improves the game specifically because it avoids the specific circumstances you desire. One man's meat is another man's poison.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: petracelli

Ah but I think it will make a big difference. Especially the effect of the chits for the pacts not coming out. It is often a factor a calculation as to the allies as to wether or not to enter the pact between Russia and Japan as it allows you to get through the 40 pot of Use quicker to allow the adding of the 41 chits.

In writing I have just realised with this new system of never running out of chits there are no circumstances by which the 41 chits can be added early. Something that happens quite regularly in the game.

The other thing is there is no balance to the Axis being really aggressive in 1940 as they know what ever they do they cannot empty the chit pool and the allies willing be pulling the rubbish 1940 chits.

Please Steve can we have an option to play it as the game with the limited chit mix. This is a really big deal for USE and if the gear ups and delayed significantly because of it, this will have a major impact on the later war game.

I really want this game to be a success I should add before I get flamed. I have been waiting for this since Adg first advertised it back in the 90s. I have not yet invested as am waiting for net play to be fixed but if there is no way the 41 chits can be added in early this seriously impacts on game balance.

This was brought up when the change was in progress, and I do not remember why it was decided to rely on the number generator. I no longer have access to the Beta Testing forum.

[petracelli]

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

ORIGINAL: petracelli

Ah but I think it will make a big difference. Especially the effect of the chits for the pacts not coming out. It is often a factor a calculation as to the allies as to wether or not to enter the pact between Russia and Japan as it allows you to get through the 40 pot of Use quicker to allow the adding of the 41 chits.

In writing I have just realised with this new system of never running out of chits there are no circumstances by which the 41 chits can be added early. Something that happens quite regularly in the game.

The other thing is there is no balance to the Axis being really aggressive in 1940 as they know what ever they do they cannot empty the chit pool and the allies willing be pulling the rubbish 1940 chits.

Please Steve can we have an option to play it as the game with the limited chit mix. This is a really big deal for USE and if the gear ups and delayed significantly because of it, this will have a major impact on the later war game.

I really want this game to be a success I should add before I get flamed. I have been waiting for this since Adg first advertised it back in the 90s. I have not yet invested as am waiting for net play to be fixed but if there is no way the 41 chits can be added in early this seriously impacts on game balance.

Certainly every player has different ideas of what makes and breaks a game. I have always felt that making decisions based on the fact that it can be used to manipulate the results, like the Allies accepting a Russo-Japanese pact to intentionally try to run out the 1940 chit pool, is the definition of "gamey". Sure, that is just my opinion, and since I am not the WiF expert many here are, for all I know Harry Rowland intentionally designed the pool of chits exactly to support the scenarios you mentioned, and not just because there was only so much space on the counter sheet.

I don't say that to criticize, but to say that I think the unlimited chit pool improves the game specifically because it avoids the specific circumstances you desire. One man's meat is another man's poison.

Rick

Accept that accepting or not the pack could be considered gamey but can also see a valuable 6 go there.

The biggest impact IMO is in giving the Axis carte Blanche to do as they please in 40 knowing they can only give 40 chits away.

Would be interested to hear from beta testers because cannot see anything other than a major impact.

[petracelli]

The other thing is this makes no sense in that why wouldn't you use the power of a pc to track where all the chits are. How does have an infinite number benefit the game?

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: petracelli

Ah but I think it will make a big difference. Especially the effect of the chits for the pacts not coming out. It is often a factor a calculation as to the allies as to wether or not to enter the pact between Russia and Japan as it allows you to get through the 40 pot of Use quicker to allow the adding of the 41 chits.

A Russo-JP pact makes a difference of 3 chits per year. if you check RAW, you will see that Russia still only draws 1 chit per turn, not one for each pact she has.

[petracelli]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: petracelli

Ah but I think it will make a big difference. Especially the effect of the chits for the pacts not coming out. It is often a factor a calculation as to the allies as to wether or not to enter the pact between Russia and Japan as it allows you to get through the 40 pot of Use quicker to allow the adding of the 41 chits.

A Russo-JP pact makes a difference of 3 chits per year. if you check RAW, you will see that Russia still only draws 1 chit per turn, not one for each pact she has.

You are correct about this but those 3 chits and the 40 pot never emptying irrespective of the Axis actions is a huge game changer and am just struggling to understand why it has been changed.