Scottish Independance

[sapper32]

Hey all as an Englishman and an ex serviceman i was thinking about Scottish independance and its effect on the UK armed forces or what is left of it.The UKs nuclear deterent is based in Scotland how will that work,What about Royal navy warships being built in Scotland ??.
If none of the political parties want the Scots to retain pounds sterling then then surely a joint armed forces is a no no.

Ian

[Twotribes]

No politics includes European politics.

[PipFromSlitherine]

Yes - I can't see a way to discuss this issue without it becoming fraught...

Cheers

Pip

[warspite1]

Pip can I ask that we at least be allowed to give it a go please? It's an interesting subject and the OP has given it a military flavour.

[danlongman]

I hope those people who really want independence would look at Belgium and Canada two culturally similar countries
which have been trying to accommodate sizable minorities with desires for autonomy. It is a very tedious and expensive
process full of all sorts of misunderstanding and grudging compromise. There are always those who advance it for personal
gain and those who hate change in any form and those who just want to start a fire and watch it burn. These sorts are
involved in any human endeavour and it is the curse of our species. How many tangible benefits will people sacrifice
for a noble dream? How many noble dreams will be sacrificed to retain tangible benefits? How many other people's
benefits or dreams will you sacrifice to get what you want? Who gains and who does not? How many meals can you buy
with transient pride? I often feel that visionaries really can't look at all the issues on the table.
"Belief" is a dangerous thing and has demonstrated a repeated tendency to trample the facts.
I really have no opinion on this one. When it becomes an emotional issue accommodation becomes difficult.
My personal roots are in Canada and the USA and my family roots are in Ulster. Had to mention Ulster.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: sapper32

Hey all as an Englishman and an ex serviceman i was thinking about Scottish independance and its effect on the UK armed forces or what is left of it.The UKs nuclear deterent is based in Scotland how will that work,What about Royal navy warships being built in Scotland ??.
If none of the political parties want the Scots to retain pounds sterling then then surely a joint armed forces is a no no.

Ian

warspite1

I think the SNP will do and say whatever in order to secure the YES vote and then, if it happens, they will give way on a load of things for practical reasons.

Faslane employs something like 6,000 people. That is a big employer for Scotland. What happens to the Army, Royal Navy and Royal Air Force? No idea. Scotland has always provided a contribution to the armed forces out of proportion to her size.

One thing seems certain, because of economies of scale, unless for those "practical" reasons I mentioned, the armed forces remain a "British" Army, the two smaller forces - Scottish and whatever they call the rest - will be smaller separately than they were when combined.

[Alchenar]

ORIGINAL: sapper32

Hey all as an Englishman and an ex serviceman i was thinking about Scottish independance and its effect on the UK armed forces or what is left of it.The UKs nuclear deterent is based in Scotland how will that work,What about Royal navy warships being built in Scotland ??.
If none of the political parties want the Scots to retain pounds sterling then then surely a joint armed forces is a no no.

Ian

The obvious answer to the nuclear deterrent is that Scottish independence would be the perfect excuse to get rid of it, given it's an expensive prestige platform that doesn't actually deter anyone (seriously, name a country that currently or plausibly in the future would pose a nuclear threat to us). We probably won't though, so relocation either has to happen or a deal over Scotland's NATO membership (that the SNP want) will be struck involving their retention.

As for the rest of the armed forces, as warspite1 says a capacity gap appears. But then, given the examples of Iraq and Afghanistan it's pretty clear that the armed forces aren't anywhere near to being large enough to fulfil the missions that politicians want them to do so... may as well cut them down anyway.

As far as independence goes, I don't mind one way or the other and as an Englishman I don't think I have a right to any other opinion. I think Scotland is likely to end up marginally worse off in the short to long term, but I think it's totally legitimate for someone to accept that as the price of national sovereignty.

[Aurelian]

nvm, Could of been thought political.

[sapper32]

I guess it is politics when you come down to it but most subjects seem to be influanced by politics these days,On another note i was in my local pub in the small garrison town i live in the other night and was listening to some retired military guys who maintain some connections with the military talking about another round of cuts to the British army for 2020s a figure of nearer 60.000 as opposed to the 82.000 that the last round of cuts has crushed it down to.I think all the future holds for the now tiny British army is that it will be predominantly made up of reserve troops and not professional regulars.

[british exil]

Living over here in the formor BAOR zone, as a child. Remembering the days when my dad was in the forces (mid 60'- 85) with thousands of troops and various regiments, 60 000 soldiers is a long way from those days. Thinking about the problems when "jock"regiments turned up in the same bars where the english were drinking, a grand night for the MP's.

Returning to the topic, how much independance are we talking about? How many scottish regiments are left? How many personal in the British Army are scottish? Would all of these leave to join their own army?
The shipyards would be producing ships for "foreign" nations, would England/UK get special prices?, as the subsidies would fall away I assume.

Would Scotland join the NATO?
Would Scotland join the EU? and would they apply for the Euro or keep the scottish pound?
Would Queen Elizabeth II be Queen Elizabeth I for Scotland, as Scotland did not have a queen called Elizabeth? Or would she be Queen of Scotland at all?


So many things would change, some for the better and some for the worst.
Do the both England and Scotland need each other? Military I would say yes. Commercial and financial, I have no idea.

Britain would also need a new flag, as the Union Jack would still include the scottish cross of St Andrew.


Just hope this thread does not turn political, just be interesting to see what others have to say.

Mat

[JudgeDredd]

I suppose I should jump in...I'll try and land gently.

sapper32
Scotland would have it's own defence force. It would be made up of regulars and territorial army members as is the army right now. I believe the word on the street is they will have a small navy (presumably for monitoring it's waters...likely not much more) and an air force. I do not know what the air force and the navy will be called...I wouldn't likely think they would be "royal" anything.

As for Faslane and the nuclear deterrent...as Alchenar pointed out, the threat of a nuclear war or even strike from any country on Scotland (or even the UK) is slim...and £100bn is a lot of money for something that is deemed unnecessary...especially when you factor in how small the army, air force and navy are becoming! The SNP never wanted a nuclear deterrent and have always resented it being in Scotland.

However - a future Scottish parliament and indeed the first one after the referendum may well not be populated by the SNP. So Faslane, in those circumstances may stay...but it is the SNP's policy to rid Scotland of an expensive, non-essential nuclear deterrent.

Danlongman
I see what you are saying, but there are plenty of countries who have sought independence, had it granted and it's worked fine for them.

British Exil
There are a few Scottish regiments - and we'd like them to stay. Successive governments run in Westminster have reduced them and combined them and Scotland would like to keep what there is...before they all disappear.

How many Scottish are in the Army? No idea. I do know there were a shed load when I was in. I have no numbers, but a fair chunk of units I served with had Scots (Liverpudlians and Geordies seemed to dominate also). Regarding whether they would leave and join their own units, I believe they will have the option to do so...but this isn't a mass exodus or "ethnic cleanse" of Scots in England. Any Scot who wants to stay can do so (unless the current establishment deem otherwise I should say)

The SNP plan is to become a non-nuclear member of NATO

The SNP plan to arrange to become a member of the European Union. The SNP insist they are keeping the pound, the current government in Westminster says no (as do the other parties). Westminster can't stop Scotland using the pound. What they can do is prevent a currency union...two totally different things.

The SNP's plan was to keep the Queen as the Head of State much like Australia and Canada and other countries in the European Union.


The plan is essentially for governmental autonomy. Having a government in Scotland with all the powers that a government can have to run their country (something Holyrood does not currently have. Yes - they have a devolved parliament and yes, they have some powers - but not all available to a government. Many policies introduced by Westminster do not favour Northern England, let alone Scotland...and that's the problem. Scotland is governed by a parliament it didn't vote for. One seat in Westminster in the current government is a seat from Scotland. So Scotland is represented within the government by one person...that's it...out of 600? politicians. That's the reality and that is one reason why many people will be voting Yes.


I should end on one note...I shan't be back because these topics often get overheated and I don't want to add to that...but Mr Cameron has promised a referendum on Europe. The people of the UK (whether that includes Scotland at the time or not) will be voting on whether to remain part of Europe or not. Now - a lot of people I speak to when we discuss issues is that they are fed up with Europe sticking their nose into this country (the UK)...and why are they fed up with it? Because Europe does not have the UK's interests at it's core. And that is the situation with Scotland and always has been.

Also - only two times in the last few decades has Scotlands voters made the difference in a parliamentary election.

Anyway - I'm away to continue my Scotland's Future read.

For the record, I am a Scot living in England. I have been in England since 1983. I am married to an English lady and I have two kids. One is passionate Scot the other doesn't care. I was in the British Armed Forces for 7 years. I do not hate the English. I have more English mates than I do Scottish due to my time down here. I do not hate being part of the UK.

But I have ALWAYS wanted Scotland to be an independent nation and I would move back to Scotland in a flash...not because of my hatred of anything south of the border, but because Scotland is my home...unfortunately my wife does not wish to.

Peace whatever happens.

[JudgeDredd]

I should also point out that Mr Cameron pushed the matter. The SNP wanted a "devo max" option where they would get more powers devolved to the Scottish parliament - Mr Cameron said no. So the question is Independence - Yes or No.

I think if devo max had been an option, then a lot of Scots may well have chose that.

I should also point out one last thing - I do not get to vote. I have not lived in Scotland since 1983 and as such do not get to vote in the referendum. I think that's totally fair. But I do wish I had moved to Scotland 5 years ago so I could vote. But I will do all in my power to spread the word.

[catwhoorg]

Trident will be based somewhere, that's for sure If Scotland doesn't want it on their soil, then there will be several options in England that would be happy for the jobs.

On the ground the Scottish regiments have a long and fruitful history, I recall my father telling me that the Scots built the British Empire. Maybe a slight exaggeration, but they certainly contributed significantly. They would be missed. I don't see a need for a large Scottish army, but I could see a lot of Scots joining the British army ( I would assume they would be happy to have them join, much like other commonwealth nations).

Scotland needs some sort of navy, even if it is just fisheries protection. An air force is not needed, but they will likely have to have some sort of basic one.


I fundamentally oppose the splitting of the Union, but accept that democracy should have its say here.

[Alchenar]

The issue with Trident is that it needs to be based in a deep-water tributary so that the submarines can leave and return submerged (and thus not be tracked).

The number of places in the UK that actually fit the necessary criteria can be counted on one hand, which is why it's a more complicated problem than simply expending the effort of having to move everything.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I should also point out one last thing - I do not get to vote. I have not lived in Scotland since 1983 and as such do not get to vote in the referendum. I think that's totally fair. But I do wish I had moved to Scotland 5 years ago so I could vote. But I will do all in my power to spread the word.

I disagree to an extent about it being 'fair'; obviously there are huge numbers of Scots living elsewhere and - while I accept if they stay elsewhere they might not have to live with some of the consequences - they should have a say IMHO. We've known about the vote for a long time, and it would have been easy for people to register simply by providing ID and birth certificates for examination and confirmation had there been a will to do that.

I see one huge plus about this referendum, though, if you look at it on a world scale. Can anyone recall any vaguely similar situation anywhere in the world where something like this has happened without violence, usually a lot of violence? I can't.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

Can anyone recall any vaguely similar situation anywhere in the world where something like this has happened without violence, usually a lot of violence? I can't.

Breakup of the Soviet Union. Toss in Czechoslovakia, too.

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: Hertston

Can anyone recall any vaguely similar situation anywhere in the world where something like this has happened without violence, usually a lot of violence? I can't.

Breakup of the Soviet Union. Toss in Czechoslovakia, too.

I dunno man. I seem to recall a LOT of violence. Some of it is still going on.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: Hertston

Can anyone recall any vaguely similar situation anywhere in the world where something like this has happened without violence, usually a lot of violence? I can't.

Breakup of the Soviet Union. Toss in Czechoslovakia, too.

The dissolution of the Swedish - Norwegian union was without violence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_betw ... _the_Union

[catwhoorg]

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

The issue with Trident is that it needs to be based in a deep-water tributary so that the submarines can leave and return submerged (and thus not be tracked).

The number of places in the UK that actually fit the necessary criteria can be counted on one hand, which is why it's a more complicated problem than simply expending the effort of having to move everything.

Whilst not an expert.

Portsmouth, Plymouth both seem to be good locations.

Milford Haven is a maybe, but I think its too busy with civilian traffic, and congested.

A real wildcard would be Belfast, good location on the surface, long history of naval supprot, but is it stable enough politically.

[JudgeDredd]

There'll be no fighting.

If the result is NO, then those supporting independence will go back to hoping one day, as they did back in the 80's. If it's a yes, there's ALOT of people who see Scotland as a millstone around England's neck and a financial burden who won't be fighting to keep the Union. That's down to the media of course...but people believe what they read...it's the nature of the beast. They are told about what goes out to Scotland. They are told of a better NHS system and a better education system (cheaper on both counts) - but they are rarely fed the numbers coming down from Scotland to the UK coffers