Still a problem with minor country reinforcements in full cities

[joshuamnave]

Situation - Sofia is full, Bulgaria receives an infantry unit and the Sofia militia. One can be placed as an off city reinforcement, the other can't be placed. If I understand the rules correctly, the player should be able to choose which unit to place and which unit goes back to the production spiral. Currently, the game puts the militia back on the spiral, then lets you place the regular infantry, without letting the player decide.

Communist Chinese reinforcements are also not getting to set up as off city reinforcements.

[paulderynck]

No. If one is a MIL, it has priority. It's the rules.

[joshuamnave]

Ok - and ChiCom units? Looking at the rules, I see nothing in the off city rule that would indicate they are ineligible.

[paulderynck]

Sorry, did not see that last sentence.

They could only be eligible to be placed in a city already controlled by the Chi Comms, but pretty sure you know that.

[joshuamnave]

all units are only eligible to be placed in a city - unless using off city reins. There's nothing that says otherwise for the ChiComs. So they should be eligible to be placed adjacent to a ChiCom city, so long as the other rules for off city reinforcements are met, no?

[Orm]

It should be possible to use off city reinforcement for Com units next to a ChiCom city.

And if MIL has a priority then it is a bug that the MIL is placed back to the spiral and the INF must be placed. It should be the reverse!

[joshuamnave]

The militia is being placed first, so that is working properly. I didn't realize that it gets priority according to the rules. The ChiComs don't seem to be working right.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

The militia is being placed first, so that is working properly. I didn't realize that it gets priority according to the rules. The ChiComs don't seem to be working right.

Could I please get a saved game for the problem with the Communist Chinese?

[joshuamnave]

Don't have one anymore. Will post if it happens again, but no longer sure it's a bug, or that it's the right bug. It's a ChiCom city surrounded by Nationalist controlled hexes, and the hexes don't change to communist control if a communist unit walks over them. Not sure if that's a bug or not, but I'm guessing that's why off city reins aren't happening.

[paulderynck]

Good observation! The rules state that the ChiComs only control cities and any other non-city hex in China - even if taken from the Japanese by the ChIComs - is Nationalist-controlled. Since you can't place an off-city reinforcement in a non-controlled hex (for that faction), you can't place a Chi-Comm adjacent to a ChI-Com city.

[Orm]

All Chinese hexes in the game, except cities, are controlled by the Nationalist Chinese. This should not stop off city reinforcements for the Communist Chinese. Note that a Communist unit can be in a hex and that hex is still controlled by the Nationalist. It can even have a Communist notional and still be a Nationalist controlled hex. One must remember that China, for many purposes, is one MP.

If I (China) control the hex next to a Communist Chinese city and that hex is not in enemy ZOC then I should be able to use that hex for placing off city reinforcement.


RAC: 4.2
....
Chinese communist units can only arrive as reinforcements in a city controlled by the communist Chinese.
....
Option 15: (Off city reinforcement) if you can’t place a reinforcement anywhere without breaking the
stacking rules, you may put it into a hex you control (not in an enemy ZOC) in the unit’s home country that is
next to a city where you could have placed it except for the stacking rules. You can’t do this with naval
units. Only 1 unit per city may be placed in this fashion each turn.

RAC: 2.5 Control
....
[Clarification. Except for cities, all hexes controlled by the Chinese are controlled by the Nationalist Chinese, even
hexes occupied by Communist Chinese units. However, the nationality of notional units matches that of the units in
the hex (Communist or Nationalist) - Aug. 1, 2007]


20. Chinese communists
The Soviet player always controls the Chinese communist units and their activities count against Soviet
activity limits. Partisans in China are always Chinese communist units.
[Clarification. Communist Chinese units may not move if China takes a Pass action. This is true even if the USSR
does not Pass. If the USSR is incompletely or completely conquered, the communist Chinese activity limits are ½ of
the USSR’s - Dec. 29, 2007.]
However, nationalist and communist Chinese units go into the same force pools. They are built by the
nationalist player but he or she has no choice whether to produce nationalist or communist units.
Apart from the above (and the placement of reinforcements ~ see 4.2), Communist and Nationalist Chinese
count as one major power for all purposes (e.g. they can't be conquered separately, declaring war on them is only one
US entry effect, etc.).
[Clarification. If China produces an offensive chit, it can be used by either the Nationalist or Communist Chinese
(the Nationalist Chinese decide how the chit is used). The Communist Chinese may get a benefit if the Nationalist
Chinese use an offensive chit: (1) no benefit to the Communist Chinese if the offensive chit is applied to Chiang or
Stilwell, (2) if the chit is used for a “super Combined Action”, the Communist Chinese units can perform all
activities irrespective of the action type taken by the USSR for the impulse, (3) may only be applied to Mao if the
USSR takes a Land Action - June 25, 2008.]

[Centuur]

Don't agree with you Orm. It says specifically:

Apart from the above (and the placement of reinforcements ~ see 4.2), Communist and Nationalist Chinese
count as one major power for all purposes.

So the placement of reïnforcements is NOT the same as for other major powers...

And:

Chinese communist units can only arrive as reinforcements in a city controlled by the communist Chinese.
....
Option 15: (Off city reinforcement) if you can’t place a reinforcement anywhere without breaking the
stacking rules, you may put it into a hex you control (not in an enemy ZOC) in the unit’s home country that is
next to a city where you could have placed it except for the stacking rules. You can’t do this with naval
units. Only 1 unit per city may be placed in this fashion each turn.

Means you never can set up Chicomm units outside of their cities, even with the off City reinforcement rule on, since the Chicomm don't control hexes in China outside of the cities...

[Orm]

I knew someone would argue this. [:)]

It all comes down to what "you may put it into a hex you control" means. My point is that Nationalist China controls all hexes in China except Communist Chinese cities. So hexes with Communist Chinese units in them are controlled by Nationalist Chinese. Note that a hex with a Communist Chinese unit in it gets a Communist notional unit even though the hex itself is controlled by the Nationalists.

So I find it so weird that a hex with a Communist unit in it and that even has a Communist notional could be considered not controlled by me. So I consider a hex in China controlled by Nationalist Chinese to be controlled by me. The rule do not say that the hex must be of the same nationality as the reinforcement.

[Centuur]

Yes, I agree it's weird, however, that is how the rules are written and this means the code is correct...

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Yes, I agree it's weird, however, that is how the rules are written and this means the code is correct...

I try to argue that it is not as the rule is written.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Yes, I agree it's weird, however, that is how the rules are written and this means the code is correct...

I try to argue that it is not as the rule is written.

What's new, regarding the rules of WiF. If you take the text literally, the code is exactly made as written here. But perhaps a native English speaker can be of some assistance here...

[paulderynck]

It's a good question to take to Harry Rowland. After reeading the above, I would side with Orm's point about "you" really means "your major power" but then again, the Chi Coms are controlled by Russia!

Because it is an "iffey" rules interpretation issue, then it's really not a bug, or at least not one with much priority. Even getting an answer from Harry will not change the code overnight.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It's a good question to take to Harry Rowland. After reeading the above, I would side with Orm's point about "you" really means "your major power" but then again, the Chi Coms are controlled by Russia!

Because it is an "iffey" rules interpretation issue, then it's really not a bug, or at least not one with much priority. Even getting an answer from Harry will not change the code overnight.

+1

[joshuamnave]

As interesting as the ambiguity in the ChiCom rules are, there's yet another minor reinforcement issue.

In this save game file, the Brussels militia shows up as being unable to be placed on the board (playing with off city reins). It should be placeable. But it only shows up as not placeable when loading from a save game... when loading from one phase back, it just crashes the game when you try to place it. I'll upload both files.

This is the file after saving and reloading:

[joshuamnave]

And here's the file from the previous phase. You'll have to assign pilots to the UK air, then advance to place reinforcements. Try placing the Belgian unit in Antwerp.