Custom USER data - British forces 2.03

[Tazak]

I'm going to be doing some more work on the user data for the British forces but in a slightly different approach this time.

I'm working on 3 different versions based around 3 points in time 1980, 1985 and 1989. Each version will feature the front line units will be named and tied down to the equipment they had at that point in time (see screen shot for names, equipment will be tied down later), this will take some of the work out for scenario designers looking to produce British based scenario's.

Before I post the 3 locked down versions here is a updated USER Data with the following changes:

1. Changed ATMP (UK44) from wheeled APC (APCW) to Wheeled Utility Vehicle (UTYW)
2. Changed ATMP Milan (UK45) from wheeled APC (APCW) to Self-Propelled Anti-Tank (SPAT)
3. Changed Rapier (Towed) (UK140) and Rapier FS B (Towed) (UK141) to use PICID TOWEDRAPIER.bmp – they were using PICID RAPIER.bmp (tracked rapier image)
4. Added USAF and WG Airforce ground attack units that operated as part of 2ATAF
A-10 Warthog (81st Tactical Fighter Wing)
F-111F Aardvark (48th Tactical Fighter Wing)
Note: it is a grey area if they would be assigned to 2 ATAF, but seeing how 2 ATAF would encompass all air units within its AOO and 48th TFW US 3rd Air Force were based in the UK it is a reasonable assumption that they would have flown missions within 2 ATAF area (plus limiting USAFE involvement to the A-10 seemed a little short sighted)
MBB F-4F (JaboG 36)
Alpha Jet (JaboG 43)
MBB Tornado IDS (JaboG 31)
5. Changed LAW-80 (UK100) first availability date to 1985 (pervious dates has LAW-80(RPG4) introduced in 1985 but LAW-80 (UK100) available from 1989)
6. Added LAW Team (UK100A) (INF-AG) armed with SLR rifles and LAW-66mm with availability dates from 1979 to 1984, this now allows Airmobile Infantry Battalion (83+) to have INF-AG rather than ‘no qualifying equipment’ during scenario design.
7. Renamed FV432 (UK36) to FV432 Peak to better indicate that it was mounting a Peak turret with the L43 MG (this was normally issued to Mechanised Infantry Battalion at the rate of 1-2 peak turret mounts per mechanised rifle platoon
8. Created Land Rover Milan (UK174A) & (UK174B) Self Propelled Anti-Tank (SPAT) using Milan and Milan II respectively, this is using the WMIK to allow Milan to be mounted on land rovers similar to Jeep with TOW. UK174A is available up to 1985 with UK174B from 1986
9. Created MILANLROVER.bmp for UK174A and UK174B
10. Removed AG8*20 from Lynx AH Mk7 (UK75) – the doors must be closed to fire TOW otherwise the cabin fills up with smoke and the MG is mounted door.
11. Added AG8*20 to Lynx (UK81 Utility Helicopter)
12. Changed all (Utility Helocopter) to (Utility helicopter)
13. Landrover with WOMBAT ATG now uses WOMBATLROVER.bmp

zipped file contains User Data C1 that you need to extract into the British Folder, and 2 images that you need to copy into Common Folder.

[Tazak]

British ORBAT circa 1980

covers 1979-1982/3 featuring 4 armoured divisions and the use of Task Force formations within those divisions.

As before the sub units are locked down so that scenario designers need only research the units name with the exception of Chieftain tanks. I've found no definitive source detailing which tank unit had Mk9, Mk10 or Mk11, and 1 source indicated that at one point a tank regiment had 2 sqns of Mk9, 1 of Mk10 and 1 of Mk11.
The Task Force HQ do not show which units were attached but this is in line with the thinking of the time to allow Division Commanders to mix and match forces for the required task (and allows greater freedom for designers IMO), although each Task Force will show which Bde they would become:
>Task Force Alpha (7th Armd Bde)
>Task Force Bravo (22nd Armd Bde)

[Tazak]

reserved for 1985

[Tazak]

1989 ORBAT - this can cover from 1988 through to 1989 when Warrior was introduced (Armoured Inf Bn)

How to use:
1. Copy the User Data file into the "C:\Matrix Games\Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm\Modules\FPRS\Data\British" (or where ever you have FPRS installed)
2. Copy the BMP image into the "C:\Matrix Games\Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm\Modules\FPRS\Data\Common"

Launch the scenario editor and select 'British (1979-1989) User' in the 'set key scenario parameters'

[battlerbritain]

Tazak, if it helps I put a Hannover 1985 Campaign doc up at the FFOT3 Yahoo group for a Brits/Germans vs WP for use with table top rules. I'll try and upload a copy here - sorry, pdfs aren't supported [:(].

The doc lists the organisations that could probably have been involved and gives some random unit selection and terrain generation tables.

[Tazak]

BB, try zipping the document as I'm these forums allow .zip to be uploaded.

Yes, interesting to have a look at it and the more sources the better comparison and it may give someone some inspiration for a scenario/campaign.

[battlerbritain]

Zip file - doh! Well spotted.

Try this...

[Tazak]

Has some interesting possibilities in terms of being able to produce a campaign or series of battles, I don't think its useful in terms of BAOR ORBAT as it seems to indicate 33 Armd Bde is part of 4th Div ??

[Tazak]

Now with British A-10 ground attack aircraft, screenshot from a campaign I'm working on with new maps and featuring aircraft from 2nd Allied Tactical Air Force. Using the campaign to test out various updates to the User Data files

[battlerbritain]

From the sources I have the Brit brigades were fairly fluid with regards to which division they were allocated to.

I've found references showing brigades listed as being in one division at one point in time but in another div at another time. Of course they could all just be wrong?

It seems that Brit defence doctrine was brigade based and that brigades could and would be swapped freely between 'divisions'.

I'm not quite sure how the Brits would have formed 'battlegroups' though and whether a brigade was the founding part of a battlegroup.

Does that tie up with anything you have?

[Tazak]

The ORBATs I use show the Bde's are fixed within Divisions from about 1983 as well as units within the Bde being fixed unless a unit was cycling back to the UK, pre1983 they used Task Forces which were fixed lettered A & B TF in 1st Armoured Division, C & D TF in 2nd Armoured, E & F TF in 3rd Armoured with G & H TF in 4th Armoured.

Each Battalion/regiment within the Bde's changed around every so often (tour of Germany) but the TOE stayed the same with the incoming unit taking over the equipment from the outgoing unit.
Task Force are the grey area, 1 source cites that each TF had 5 battlegroups made up from all units within the division while the other source cites the units stayed the same within each TF similar to how Bde's had fixed (other than tour changes) units within them.

So really there is only the pre-1983 period where units within TFs are flexible, that isn't to say that whoever wrote the source material was 'flex school' thinking or 'fixed school' thinking and that influenced how the source was written.

Edit: 33 Bde is part of 3rd Armd Div which was to be 1 BR Corp reserve so nothing to say that it was attach to 4th Armd Div to cover loses

[battlerbritain]

Doing some digging 'Armies of NATOs Central Front' by Kamps and Isby, published by Janes 1985, has 4th Armd Div in 1985 as having 11th, 20th and 33rd Armd Bdes, with 3rd Armd Div as having 4th Armd Bde and 6th AirMobile Bde (re-roleing to Armd Bde in 1987).

A Moves magazine article on SPIs Central Front Series from 1981 has 33rd and 6th Armd Bdes in 3rd Armd Div.

I'll attach the Moves article.

[Plodder]

Harvey Black's Blog (Red Effect) has some info on BAOR circa 1984/85.

http://harveyblackauthor.org/tag/mechanised-infantry-battalion/

Scroll down the page for an orbat of BAOR. Not sure of the accuracy but the author was in BRIXMIS at that time so should be fairly reliable.

[Plodder]

Here's an orbat for 1989.Pretty well researched, I sourced it from here:

http://bfg-locations.editboard.com/t1873-baor-orbat-1989

This was my main source to help correct the British scenarios for Mad Russian.

[Tazak]

The British Army in Germany: An Organizational History 1947-2004 - this has 33 armd bde as part of 4 div until 1985/86 when 19th inf bde moved from Germany to the UK as well as moving from 3 div to 4 div. At the same time 33 armd bde moved to 3 div to replace 19th inf bde

This would tie up with Harvey Black's site as well as one or two other miniature gaming sites/forums, however there are 2 sources that cite 33 armd bde being part of 3 div after the change from TF to Bde's. The more I look into it, the more I'm beginning to suspect the later 2 sources as incorrect.

although I just found this quote on a forum so beginning to think MR is right, the British command just messing with peoples head some 30 odd years later [;)]

Interesting to see 33 Armd Bde mentioned – I was in 202 Sig Sqn (33 Armd Bde) myself from 1979-1982 – we were originally part of 3 Div (as the old Task Force Echo Sig Troop) then later moved to 4 Div.

Later still the Brigade moved back to 3 Div.

[Tazak]

posted a User data C1 file, see first post for details

[Tazak]

Looking for some feedback around how I'm going to change the way I present the 1980/1985/1989 user data sheets:

Up till recently I was planning on listing the actual units with their TOE tied down, however this is proving more challenging than I first imaged as the various combat units moved in or out of BAOR. I had planned to list the various units that were part of each Bde/Div in a separate tab however this was more than likely to infringe on copyright (so a big NO NO on doing that).

Instead I'm exploring doing the 3 user data sheets for the time periods but rather than listing every unit it will only list the higher command structure and showing wither they were 'mech inf bn', 'armored regiment' or 'armored inf bn'. Within each sub unit the equipment will be tied down to the actual TOE (as best as I can research) e.g. Armored Inf Bn only had 45 warriors and a number of FV432 until late 1990's, in 1985 armored regiments often had upgraded to various degrees entire chieftain squadrons (1 regiment had 3 sqns, 1 with Mk9, 1 with Mk10 and its 3rd sqn with Mk11)

At work at the moment but image the following

1st Arm Div (header)
1st Arm Support Group (header)
> Regt RA (locked down TOE)
> Regt RA (locked down TOE)
> Bty AD (locked down TOE)
> regiment ACC (locked down TOE)
1st Bde (header)
>Armored Regt (locked down TOE)
>Armored Regt (locked down TOE)
>Mech Inf Bn (locked down TOE)
2nd Bde (header)
>Armored Regt (locked down TOE)
>Armored Regt (locked down TOE)
>Mech Inf Bn (locked down TOE)

If used in conjunction with something like The British Army in Germany: An Organizational History 1947-2004 would scenario designers a helping hand if their not familiar with BAOR

[jds1978]

so you are thinking about offering a few different TOE options under each
division header?

IE : 1st Division (header)
>Armored Reg (type A [ex: Chieftains Mk XX])
>Armored Reg (type B [ex: Challenger])
etc...

....I assume the user would then mix and match according to whatever the sources said. Seems like a good idea. Instead of you (the mod designer)getting bogged down, you allow the user to get as far into as they want to

Did I read that right?

[Tazak]

Not quite, its the other way around I want to take a lot of the work out in terms of historical TOE leaving the player with just having to research the names of the units.

What occurs in reality is that when units cycle out of a BAOR posting, their replacement takes over the TOE e.g. when 3LI took over from QLR in Paderborn late 1989/early 1990 QLR took their personal belongings and left us their vehicles, in ORBAT terms our TOE remained the same as QLR it was just the unit name that changed, as I've painfully found out even during any 12month period 1 BR corp cycled nearly 15% of its armour/mech infantry units however the actual equipment holdings remained static.

[jds1978]

ORIGINAL: Tazak

Not quite, its the other way around I want to take a lot of the work out in terms of historical TOE leaving the player with just having to research the names of the units.

What occurs in reality is that when units cycle out of a BAOR posting, their replacement takes over the TOE e.g. when 3LI took over from QLR in Paderborn late 1989/early 1990 QLR took their personal belongings and left us their vehicles, in ORBAT terms our TOE remained the same as QLR it was just the unit name that changed, as I've painfully found out even during any 12month period 1 BR corp cycled nearly 15% of its armour/mech infantry units however the actual equipment holdings remained static.

That makes sense. The British would rotate the personnel in/out and leave the equipment in Germany as they wanted the BAOR to have the better equipment

I'll be watching this space for your updates. Thanks [:)]