Russian Tank Armies

[jwolf]

Background: I am an inexperienced player in my first Russian game, vs. the AI, now in July 42. I see that I can create a tank army HQ if I want to spend 25 AP doing so. So I have some basic questions about them.

How many of these, and when, do you normally build?

What goes into a tank army? Is it the Soviet version of a German panzer army?

What's the difference between a tank army and a shock army? What uses would you make of each type?

[Faucheur]

Hi jwolf !
I am also an inexperimented player.
Historically, red army built up to 6 tansk armies during WWII. They were smaller than PzArmies, but they were mostly built from tank corps or brigades. They were used after the initial infantry breakthrought, for the exploitation in the deep german rear areas. I think that shock armies were better used for breakthroughs...
This is the way I intend to use my tank armies (I also play GC vs AI, and I am in July '42 as well)...

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Background: I am an inexperienced player in my first Russian game, vs. the AI, now in July 42. I see that I can create a tank army HQ if I want to spend 25 AP doing so. So I have some basic questions about them.

How many of these, and when, do you normally build?

What goes into a tank army? Is it the Soviet version of a German panzer army?

What's the difference between a tank army and a shock army? What uses would you make of each type?

Yes is the short answer, para 11.24, for motorised leaders there is a +1 on admin check. Which given the likely Soviet candidates have decent scores is actually far more valuable than it sounds. Of course the trade off is the lower CP cap - you'll fit in 3 corps and 3 CPs spare. But then, you'll often want these all stacked (esp early games) to get a decent combat value.

My approach is to build 3 pretty much when they are ready. Fill them up with Rybalko, Rotmistrov, Kravchenko and get them on the way to GTA status asap. I'll then build a second batch as and when I can afford mech corps and end up with the historic mix of 2 tank/1 mech corps each (remember its the mech corp that really matches off vs the Pzr Div).

Overall the six the Soviets raised historically should be enough. You can allocate out the remaining tank/mech corps to the combined arms armies - they may well help you to get Gds Army status with a decent set of wins - to bolster the overall front.

Have seen some posts that say don't bother. The lower CP isn't worth the admin gain.

[morvael]

I like my tank armies, built from the start as 2 Tank Corps + 1 Mech Corps with support units. 6 armies seem to be the historical/game cap, because of truck limits and leader limits. Of course if you have less mobile units outside of tank armies or a smaller Red Army in general you can go for more. Mech corps are the real workhorse, but they consume a lot of trucks. 3-corps armies are good because of stack limits, so I don't mind the 15 CP limit. Obviously in the initial '42 buildup you need more Combined Arms Armies to put all the divisions and corps under proper command, but it's ok to build 1-2 tank armies starting Sept'42 (when the mech corps becomes available) and 3-4 more in '43.

[jwolf]

Thanks to all for the replies, very helpful and interesting.  Sounds like having a tank army HQ is not so critical that it can't wait at least until September 42.  That's good because I'm trying to spend my AP on more rifle corps and creating more rifle units, period.  I have an ahistorically large army, about 8.5M.  So far the truck numbers are OK; I have about 190-200K and need about 120-130K.  This will probably get worse when the weather turns bad later in the year, especially if I press a vigorous offensive as I expect.

Loki's comment that the mech corps is what will match up well against a Pz division is encouraging, because so far my other corps won't do the job unless massed together in a colossal attack.  Even after the July 42 upgrade, my tank corps have a CV of 6-7; the cavalry corps are lower and the rifle corps are in the range 7-10 mostly.

Thanks again for the comments; more input would be much appreciated.

[morvael]

Tank Army gives +1 admin, and that means more movement points (on average) per turn. They also have their own separate Guards limit, so it's even more movement points in the long run. Soviet leaders like Rotmistrov while good in Mech are poor in Admin, so it's worth to boost that stat.

What you need for the mech/tank units is to get more experience and morale. You get both by winning battles so fight where you are sure of wins, like pushing back Rumanians. A few hasties means 4-5 morale points increase, and experience follows. Mech corps are really pathetic at start as they cannot draw on experienced brigades like the tank corps do, and the -25 experience hit is very hard for them. A newly formed mech corps will have 2-3 CV only, so you need to let them build experience in optimal conditions. Soviet mech morale bonus is your friend from august '42 and august '43 (+5 each), guards bonus (+10) is also great. All bonuses together mean you can easily reach morale and experience 80 by the end of '43, and that gives CV 20-22 units, especially when stuffed with a sapper regiment, heavy tank regiment and heavy su regiment (for pure CV reasons 3 tank regiments would be best, but you need to use heavier equipment as well). Use German tactics, attack with those tank armies but put them in the second line during the enemy turn, so they won't get hit by retaliating panzers. Let the rifle corps be your shield.

[morvael]

Here you can compare what is the difference between an experienced tank army and a quite "green" one:
fb.asp?m=3506589
(There are five of them on the screenshot)

[jwolf]

Morvael, in your screenshot even the two "green" stacks have an average CV of about 9 per corps, which sounds pretty good for a player still used to the mid-42 Red army.  On the other hand I am in awe of the rifle and tank corps stacks with average CV of 14-18 per corps.  So far my best morale and experience units are in the low 60s but also it looks like I really need to work on the support units which I have not emphasized at all yet.

My game vs. the AI is a WW1 style trench war slugfest in most of the front.  I have few opportunities for mere hasty attacks, let alone a sequence of them.  When I do find an exposed Rumanian stack I usually hit them with a massive attack using everything that can reach them.  In this way I have destroyed about 10 of them by shatters.  But I haven't had much opportunity for any kind of war of maneuver.  I hope that as I build up strength during the summer I can do more than just the WW1 battles but so far that's about all I can do.

Thanks for the tips and I eagerly look forward to seeing some of those awesome tank and mech corps myself!

[GamesaurusRex]

That advice may work against the AI, but not against a competent human opponent...

Morvael... I've got to comment here because a Russian player is unable to do the things you are suggesting in the time frame you are talking about. With the formation of Russian units into Divisions and Corp pushed back as far as you have in the recent patches, combined with the unit costs, truck requirements, and an AP limit of 60 points per turn, you simply cannot afford to build up anything other than infantry Divisons (and Corp as soon as allowed). Do anything else and you will not have the necessary troops to cover the front and stop the Germans from steamrolling the front.

Your suggestion that you can just "build morale and guards status" by "winning" battles is laughably absurd, if you are playing against a competent opponent on the German side. Maybe you can do that against the AI, but let me emphasize... THERE WILL BE NO RUSSIAN VICTORIES IN 1941 AND 1942 UNLESS THE GERMAN INTENTIONALLY OVEREXTENDS HIS TROOPS. NONE. NOT ONE. NADA. A competent player on the German side will not let it happen and the Russian side has no way of preventing this.

With the German using the "flipped hex" feature of this game, the Russian will often not even be able to move next to a German unit, much less attack it, because of the ridiculously low morale penalties the game puts on the Russian side in 41-42. Add to that the fact that the morale decline that is supposed to begin afflicting the Germans IS BUGGED AND NOT WORKING, and you will be hard pressed to even attack them effectively in 1943.

[morvael]

I'm just sharing my experience from a single PBEM started under 1.6.19 and running for 1.5 years, so for sure those tactics may not work for a game started under newest version from scratch. However, they were based on a game vs a human opponent, not an AI. In that game I didn't use ant carpet tactics that seemed most popular at the time, and it paid me well, so my experience may not work against some opponents. Obviously I only defended in 1941 and 1942, and the tank army buildup really kicked off in 1943. And it was possible to attack where the enemy was weakest (single divs) so 2 tank armies or a tank army plus some corps were able to push those units back and win some morale and gather experience. With a really long front there were hexes occupied by lone Hungarians or Rumanians, especially that German panzers moved to reserves for my turn, just like my mech forces. Experience builds without fight as well, but it's a slower process. I built tanks corps during summer '42 but they were attached to regular armies and switched to rifle corps in autumn '42 (even with the price of 20AP) when I noticed I was heading for a truck disaster (partially caused by bugs now gone).

For sure 41 and 42 is for defense, not attacks; tank army buildup and morale farming is a process for summer of 43.

[morvael]

All I ever did was to increase CV per hex of the front, so when the Cav Corps were available I built those to get rid of those weak divs. When the Tank Corps were available I built these as a 4-5 CV tank corps + two rifle divs were better than a bunch of 1 CV tank brigades in the second line, the same applied to rifle corps. Russian player needs to get as much high-CV units as fast as possible due to stack limits. Tank Armies (or other specialized formations) can wait for the attack phase, though it's good to plan their build process in order not to waste APs when reassigning corps units, which is a pain.

[morvael]

July 42:
fb.asp?m=3237849
My opinions from that time (not much has changed):
fb.asp?m=3259794 and fb.asp?m=3334004
Early 43:
fb.asp?m=3295697

Of course it all depends on the interplay between two opponents. I didn't have to rebuild destroyed units.

Edit: besides, I may have played the game too cautiously (I'm defensive minded, I need to cover all holes first, before launching my own attacks) and I may lose it on points.

For sure gather as much tips as you can from other players, it all helps to form your own opinion. I'm not a powergamer, I like to have some historical flavour, though I will of course not make dumb moves as they did.

[Flaviusx]

The basic problem with tank armies is the opportunity cost in APs. You can get almost the same benefit with shock or guards armies and they have a larger command capacity.

Since APs are at a premium, it's very easy to take a pass on the tank army HQs. The Red Army won't really be in a position to conduct mobile warfare until late 1943 at the earliest against any kind of decent German player. It's the rifle corps and artillery divisions that will create the conditions for mobile operations and grind though the endless series of fortified lines -- why buy a tank army HQ before then?

Modest proposal: put the tank army HQs in as historical reinforcements, all 6 of them. If the Soviet wants to buy more than that, go to town. Very few players will bother. They are just not that cost effective.

[gingerbread]

Here is a tip:

Unit that did not move in the preceding turn automatically make their ADMIN roll. So during the period when the name of the game for the Tank & Mech Corps is victories for their own sake, plan in a 2, or even 3 turn cycle. That way, the Tank Army ADMIN benefit is voided and these can be built much later, if at all.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Here is a tip:

Unit that did not move in the preceding turn automatically make their ADMIN roll. So during the period when the name of the game for the Tank & Mech Corps is victories for their own sake, plan in a 2, or even 3 turn cycle. That way, the Tank Army ADMIN benefit is voided and these can be built much later, if at all.

Ginger... I have absolutely no clue what you just said... Can anyone translate this ?

[morvael]

He says that by using mobile units every second turn you are guaranteed to pass admin roll for movement points automatically, thus tank army bonus is not important and one can live with those corps operating under combined arms hq. And when the front moves slowly and one just wants to get sure wins using those forces every second turn is enough.

As for the command capacity I didn't have problem at the army level, since I could build as many as I wanted. It's the front level that is overloaded and here you can do nothing until '44 when you have converted all divs to corps (6 CP from 3 divs is reduced to 4 CP from a single corps) and the front CP limit has grown. Also, as I said, I like some flavour, so I'm not into pure-math solutions.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: morvael

He says that by using mobile units every second turn you are guaranteed to pass admin roll for movement points automatically, thus tank army bonus is not important and one can live with those corps operating under combined arms hq. And when the front moves slowly and one just wants to get sure wins using those forces every second turn is enough.

As for the command capacity I didn't have problem at the army level, since I could build as many as I wanted. It's the front level that is overloaded and here you can do nothing until '44 when you have converted all divs to corps (6 CP from 3 divs is reduced to 4 CP from a single corps) and the front CP limit has grown. Also, as I said, I like some flavour, so I'm not into pure-math solutions.

Thanks Morv.. I understand now... but that still isn't going to gain you any Guards units against a German player who competently denies you easy wins by not overextending his positions and covering them with "flipped hexes" so they cannot be attacked.

[morvael]

That's the reality of the game. Soviet players can't expect to repeat Axis '41 blitz advances and maneuver warfare. At start strong Germans are against weak Soviets, later on strong Soviets are against strong Germans. This determines that the late game is a grind, and you can expect the front to move faster only when the Axis men/arm pools are depleted and/or given front part is in the risk of encirclement due to advances on the flanks or is no longer important to the Axis player. Even there it's hard to pursue the Germans, as the Soviet army is only capable of 1-2 hex ordered pursuit or 2-3 hex disordered one (and then you risk some counterattacks). For the mobile warfare loving players there is only one side to play.

[GamesaurusRex]

Morvael... I wasn't referring to mobile warfare... I was pointing out that one of the game's main tools and eventually compensating Russian combat factors that is supposed to increase over time in the gameplay, is the use of Guards Status. I was further pointing out that, except for the few Guards units initially given in the OB, it is nearly impossible for the Russian player to "farm" that status in 41-42 when played against a German player that knows how the game mechanics work.

My main point is that the "farming" of Guards units is not nearly as easy as you suppose, when playing against a competent German player. In the examples you posted, it looks like you have alot of Guards units that were farmed in 41-42. That is not possible against a savy German player.

The formation of Guards units is apparently an important factor of Russian combat force in the game. Game balance should be based on the assumption that both sides are competent. If competent manipulation of game mechanics can deny one side the use of essential combat factors (i.e. Guard Status) which were intended to function under the game's basic design, then that is a balance consideration.

(NOTE: I'm not lobbying for any change here, I'm just wanting to draw your attention to this point because it seems from your comments that you believe "guards farming" to be much easier than it is.)

[Tarhunnas]

Gameasurus, it is quite the norm to have a number of guards units by mid 1942, whether you actively try to farm them or not. No German player can prevent that! And if your opponent is such an über player that he is able to deny you this, and constantly able to outplay you to the extent it appears in your posts, I suggest you try to find a more evenly matched opponent.