Royal Navy Question

[John 3rd]

In the proposed Mod I am working on I have a question for all the dedicated Royal Navy fans out there. Did the RN ever explore the possibility of a CLV? A hybrid Cruiser-Carrier is what I refer to. The United States and Japan both examined the possibility and discarded it. I am looking at placing 1-2 into allowable building for the London Naval Treaty.

If the RN did then what were its specs?

Thanks.

[oldman45]

There was a design for converting a Hawkins class.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/melbou_f.htm

I can't find where I saw a hybrid but the link shows a fully converted Hawkins.

[John 3rd]

That is as good start as any. Might just do exactly what it describes and have GB 'give' one to the Aussies. That would be fun. The other could be in the IO at war's start.

[msieving1]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

There was a design for converting a Hawkins class.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/melbou_f.htm

I can't find where I saw a hybrid but the link shows a fully converted Hawkins.

The Furashita designs are wholly fictional (consider the stereotype Japanese pronunciation of "L" as "R" and you'll see the origins of the name Furashita). In real life, the Vindictive was started as a Hawkins class cruiser and converted to a seaplane carrier during construction. After a few years, she was converted back to a cruiser.

[btd64]

Great idea for aussie's navy.
Cheers

[John 3rd]

msieving1: I know that it is totally fictional but it seems a semi-realistic possibility. If anyone can find a REAL design then I will gladly use it.

Certainly would be a NICE addition to Kangarooland's Fleet!

[Jellicoe]

John

Have you read 'Hybrid Warship; the Amalgamation of Big Guns and Aircraft' by Rd Layman and Stephen McLaughlin pub Conway Maritime Press in 1991. Chapter 11 deals with Admiralty designs in 1940s amongst other things. Also includes indepth discussion on US and other designs

[dwg]

I can't find the reference I was looking for, but this thread quotes it: http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.c ... x-mnuXD1AU It runs through a whole slew of RN inter- and early-war carrier designs, including pre-war CVEs, Trade Protection Carriers and the 'Aircraft Destroyer', a series of lightweight fighter carriers. The Trade Protection Carriers are what the RN was looking at when other people were thinking of CLVs.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Jellicoe

John

Have you read 'Hybrid Warship; the Amalgamation of Big Guns and Aircraft' by Rd Layman and Stephen McLaughlin pub Conway Maritime Press in 1991. Chapter 11 deals with Admiralty designs in 1940s amongst other things. Also includes indepth discussion on US and other designs

Found the book but it is $70.00 used. Might get yelled at by the SPOUSE if I buy that! Does anyone have a design spec for a Brit CLV?

[Symon]

Hi John,

The thread that dwg posted is full of fascinating information, as well as proposed specifications for various alternatives, taken right from the book. It is well worth reading the whole thread.

What is most fascinating, and worth your consideration, is that the UK was thinking along the lines of flight decks on twin screw merchant hulls; not on warship hulls. There were a gazillion 26-28 kt commercial designs out there and many were considered suitable for the TPC role.

I don’t quite understand the adherence to a CLV type. There’s a good financial analysis in the thread, and it would apply (even more so) to an adaptation of a warship hull. Your typical Brit CL hull has neither the length nor the volume to accommodate any significant number of aircraft or their support infrastructure. CLs were fast, but had a large waterplane component in their hull design. They were efficient and had long endurance at cruising speeds (12-15 kts), but the speed/consumption curve went through the roof well into the intermediate speed range.

A high speed commercial hull could not reach the speed heights of a warship, even though longer, but it was as, if not more, efficient at cruising speeds and could be as, if not more, efficient at intermediate speeds, up to its root waterline length (around 24-28 kts). It would be longer (longer flight deck, so higher performance planes), more voluminous (room for hangars, workshops, weaps), and fast “enough” to play “trade shepherd”, and maybe even be a decent auxiliary for the fleet.

The TPC died of a dearth of funds in a time of severe financial constraints. The cost/benefit tilted towards the fleet-type aircraft ship. But if money were available for CLVs, would it not be available for TPCs as a better, cheaper, alternative for the intended mission?

I note that one of the designers (Forbes) of the TPC went on to design the Unicorn, and it is informative to compare the TPC proposals to the later Colossus class. These designs were on the Admiralty desk as of 1932, in response to a 1931 requirement. If the requirement were published earlier, I’m sure the proposals would have been similar. UK naval architects were pretty smart [8D].

Ciao. JWE

[Symon]

Seems there was talk of converting some of the "Castle" class ships around the time of Munich. In your mod world, you would be looking at likely hulls in the 1920s time frame. Harland & Wolff did the "Castles" in the mid 30s, but they built other, very similar vessels in the teens and 20s. It was a matter of engine design. Commercial tripple expansion could get you there, but at a HP premium in the first convergence region.

I would not be surprised if the Admiralty put a use spec of turbines in a 1920s requirement. So a contemporary tripple expansion engine installation might get you to 22 kts, but a contemporary turbine might get you to 25 kts. It all depends; you pays your ante; you turns your cards; and sees what you get.

There's not a few alternatives out there. I do believe Brother Kereguelen (or Brother Juan) can get more detailed, if you are interested.

Ciao. JWE

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: Jellicoe

John

Have you read 'Hybrid Warship; the Amalgamation of Big Guns and Aircraft' by Rd Layman and Stephen McLaughlin pub Conway Maritime Press in 1991. Chapter 11 deals with Admiralty designs in 1940s amongst other things. Also includes indepth discussion on US and other designs

Found the book but it is $70.00 used. Might get yelled at by the SPOUSE if I buy that! Does anyone have a design spec for a Brit CLV?

I have this book, but there is not much on British CLV. The British did not even consider CLV until the Americans pushed to have them included in the treaties. Then they reviewed them briefly but adopted a wait-and-see attitude. Basically wait until someone else built one and see how it worked.

Captain C. E. Turle, Director of the Naval Air Division recommended "the design of a flying-deck cruiser should be examined forthwith ... and that the construction of such a cruiser shall receive early consideration." He put together a list of proposed characteristics:

Stowage for 12 aircraft to be provided at a minimum, 18 for preference.
Hanger space is not essential, but preferably hanger space for at least 1/3 of the aircraft where major maintenance could be effected.
A catapult might be required
Smooth flow over the flying deck to be given special consideration
Length of flying deck to be 250 feet, made up as follows:
- 50 ft. abaft the after arresting wire.
- 100 ft. (5 wires 25 ft. apart)
- 100 ft. before the foremost wire, i.e. the length necessary to pull up a 55 knot aircraft with 1 g. with a 20 knot deck wind
Breadth of flying deck to be at least 60 ft.
No superstructure to be abreast after 200 feet of flying deck.

No requirements were given for the ship itself, and the aircraft handling specifications were obviously geared to a small reconnaissance aircraft, probably something like the Seafox.

[Symon]

The Master speaks. Not much capability on a ship of those specifications. Maybe you should wait till later and try to get a couplt TPCs into the mix? Oh well.[;)]

[oldman45]

I like the idea of TPC's. If we go with the line of thinking, the US builds her two CLV's in the late 1920's and as everybody suspected they were failures. That gets the British to point out all the Castle hulls they have that could be converted and the rest will be history. [;)]

[dwg]

If you want something earlier than the TPCs and the Winchester Castle conversions, then my pet design is to gut the two old protected cruisers Powerful and Terrible and stick a set of Marksman class machinery in each to get an extra couple of light carriers roughly the size of Hermes. They won't be very good carriers, they're significantly shorter than Hermes, while beamier and deeper in the water, but the extra power from the new machinery should gain them a knot or two while significantly reducing needed manpower, and it isn't as if Powerful and Terrible actually achieved anything in their original format (they made a couple of runs as troop transports in WWI and sat out the 20s as training ships).

[dwg]

ORIGINAL: Symon
I would not be surprised if the Admiralty put a use spec of turbines in a 1920s requirement. So a contemporary tripple expansion engine installation might get you to 22 kts, but a contemporary turbine might get you to 25 kts.

IIRC, the Admiralty deliberately set aside about 20 sets of turbines from S-class destroyers scrapped after the 1930 London Treaty. It's a little late for a 20s requirement, but that's 20 sets of 27,000 shp machinery looking for a use.

[John 3rd]

Might be an interesting thought to allow another Hermes Type CVL into the IO at war's start. The US gained tonnage for a CVL by what we've talked about for the Mod so why not add one for the Brits?

Think I will go with our original thought of a Hawkin's conversion for a CLV.

[oldman45]

John, I think you should mull over JWE and the others suggesting the xAK conversions. It makes sense.

[John 3rd]

We could certainly see something added to the OOB. Maybe we go with what that article stated in the Thread cited above (no Brit CLVs) and allow 1 or 2 conversions to occur. They are marginal vessels that Churchill sees little use for in the Atlantic and, thus, they end up in the IO/Pacific.

[jakla1027]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

There was a design for converting a Hawkins class.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/melbou_f.htm

I can't find where I saw a hybrid but the link shows a fully converted Hawkins.

Does anyone know if there is in game art for these ships anywhere?