A question about reenforcements in a PBEM Game

[Gary Tatro]

Ok here is the situation. A friend of mine and I have been playing a PBEM game with a 10% artillary limit. He is new and I have been introducing new stituations and units as we play new games. We are currently playing a Russian delay (me) vs a German advance (him) in June 1941. Beginning of Operation Barbarosa. Well I was able to sneek two platoons of Motor Cycles past his lines and into his back field, by turn 6 I had found his artillary park and attacked. He did not leave any units to defend it (common mistake, I learned this the hard way myself a long time ago) and over the process of two turns lost all of his artillary, FO's and Ammo trucks.
Now here is the question, he wants to call in reenforcements, and what are reenforcements for, if not to replace units that you have lost. So taking into account the 10% rule we started with Germans at 7500 points Russians at 5000 points. He could call for 750 points worth of reenforcements.
1) If he called for artillary reenfocements would it be foul play if he asked for more than 75 points worth of artillary or
2) would it be more appropriate to say that he could purchase as much artillary as long as he never exceeded 825 points total (7500 + 750) * 10%. Because he still has some off-board artillary. Or
3) Should he be allowed to call for as much artillary as he wants since they are reenforcements and thus might exceed the original house rule of 10%.

I have never run into this before myself. But there has been times where I thought it might be nice to call for some additional artillary. I told him that I would put it up on the forum to see what other people think. So what do ya think?

[Supervisor]

In my opinion only, option 3 if he is to be allowed to call for reenforcements he should be allowed what ever he chooses. Remember he will be the one penalized in the end scoring for choosing this option in the first place. Sounds like something the 2 players would need to agree on it though.

[John Galt]

IMHO, let him take what he wants.....

[rbrunsman]

I think keeping the rules simple is best. So, no additional arty after the initial purchase. That way everyone knows how much arty the other has. Otherwise you open it up to interpretations that detract from the first goal of limiting the arty in the first place.

Note: The reinforcement limit is 20%, not 10%. (unless 10% is the preset Advance-Delay limit). So the attacker could actually get 900 pts of arty total in your option #2.

This is a good question, because it is not one that I would willingly want to ask in a serious PBEM battle because you are giving away intel if you even mention it.

I would also like to add a question about mines:
As a general rule, I believe that engineer placed mines should be the only mines allowed in a meeting engagement (i.e. most PBEM battles), unless specifically requested otherwise by one player. Is this everyone else's opinion or am I wrong here.

[rbrunsman]

I think this would be a good place for everyone to come to a consensus as to the "unspoken" rules of PBEM. It kind of defeats the purpose if you ask for permission to buy mines before a game or to buy more arty during a game. And it is annoying to set up a game and have to go through all the options that you don't want your opponent to use. E.g. No prelaid mines, no air units, no Uhus in a day game to look through smoke, no first turn air-drops, etc. These should be unspoken rules unless specific exceptions are agreed upon, IMHO.

[cknoll]

I like the option that lets me^H^H the annonymous player that Tatro is talking about do whatever I^H he wants.

-Chris

[Toontje]

I try to take some mines always if I not forget to deploy 'em what I have consistently done so far. I admire that in opponents, too. Reinforcements I tend to use to get stuf to counteract a specific treat (I tend to avoid 88mm FLaK unless it's early war and nothing else will take out heavy armoured enemy's, so if I encounter KV's/ Mathilde's I call for some.)
Maybe a light OB arty battery if the opposition has a lot of OB arty for main purpose counterbattery.

In short: Mines OK, reinforcements whatever you want.

[Goblin]

I always limit myself to the original percentage agreed upon. In this case, I would spend just 10% of the reinforcement points on artillery.

Goblin

[Capt. Pixel]

Originally posted by Goblin
I always limit myself to the original percentage agreed upon. In this case, I would spend just 10% of the reinforcement points on artillery.

Goblin

I agree. This is the way I interpret that common arrangement.

As for other limiting options, you just have to agree what you want (or don't want). If an option limit wasn't agreed upon in advance, then neither player should be beholden to it.

Dominating your force with any one weapon system has it's strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes it can be a liability all in of itself.

It's an interesting problem though. I guess he learned a valuable lesson about artillery parks.

[Svennemir]

I think he should be able to call for arty reinforcements roughly equivalent to losses. If you couldn't select what type of reinforcements you want, why would reinforcements exist at all? Then it would be equal to buying your reinforcements at turn 1 - you'll get some units, but not necessarily those that you might actually NEED.

The reinforcement option is there so that you can call in additional units in whatever role(s) urgently needed. I would take for granted that arty reinforcements are therefore okay. But of course we're all different =).

If he has an armada of tanks, buy ATGs as reinforcements. If your infantry lines run out of momentum, (e.g. are suppressed and scattered so you can't use them effectively because of C&C) get mech.inf. fast to support the tanks. If your artillery gets busted - what's more natural than acquire new tubes?

[Alexandra]

Originally posted by Svennemir
I think he should be able to call for arty reinforcements roughly equivalent to losses. If you couldn't select what type of reinforcements you want, why would reinforcements exist at all? Then it would be equal to buying your reinforcements at turn 1 - you'll get some units, but not necessarily those that you might actually NEED.

The reinforcement option is there so that you can call in additional units in whatever role(s) urgently needed. I would take for granted that arty reinforcements are therefore okay. But of course we're all different =).

If he has an armada of tanks, buy ATGs as reinforcements. If your infantry lines run out of momentum, (e.g. are suppressed and scattered so you can't use them effectively because of C&C) get mech.inf. fast to support the tanks. If your artillery gets busted - what's more natural than acquire new tubes?

Actually, this above is why I never use reinforcements - well, actually, I did use them once. It's broken, IMO.

IRL, you can't pick and choose what you get for reinforcements. If you get anything, you get what is availiible to higger command, and there are plenty of stories in the history texts we all read that tell us times when what a commander got is not at all what he wanted/needed. So, it break realism.

However, it also breaks fair play. There are just as many stories, in the PBeM world, about how people used the reinforcements to break agreements, or to just plain game the game, instead of fighting the battle.

I really hope reinforcements are done much better in CL.

Alex

[Drex]

Reinforcements never should have brought into the game, but since they have been, Pandora's box has been opened and we must live with it. I believe any reiforcement should be allowed and of course the penalties are carried with them. I do use reinforcements and frankly they rarely do any good. I have had some opponents who called for reiforcemnts after the first turn and that I believe that is gaming the game. As for mines, they should never be prelaid in a meeting engagement, however- in a desert battle minefields of both sides were often present due to the shifting of battlelines so perhaps that could be negotiated.

[Toontje]

Prelaying mines can be used to game the game, but a few patches can be explainable anyway (Altrough I don't think there was FASCAM those days.)

Reinforcements can also be seen as strategic reserves (As opposed to tactical reserves you gotta use yourself), altrough using 'em before even spotting opposition can be gaming the system; in effect you can get a 10% larger army. 10% isn't that much of a difference btw.
Availlability of units that were not availlable during obtaining forces might be a bit unrealistic tho: OTOH, being able to chose your forces anyway is also unrealistic.

[VikingNo2]

Okay here is my two cents

As long as you don't exceed preset arrangements the you should be able two buy what ever you want. ( unless you play Gary then you should get extra )

Mines are a tuff one though, I see the point if you have to ask then its ruins the suprize they provide, however to many make certian types of battles(meeting engagements) into a assault with equal points. On the other hand if you had an arty park then you probably would mine the area around it to some degree

The game is the game, you are higher HQ ofcourse you get to pick what ever you want, put rarity on thats the best you are going to get.

My opinion is in meeting engagement large maps and above 50 mines max, med map 25, small 15.

There are so many good players with so many different styles thats what makes it so fun, I go over battles in my head trying to find tendicies to exploit and normally play the same person several times to give both player the options to try different tactics.

One last thing Capt P your time has come!


:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Drex]

Another point is that if you put your engineers to laying mines during deloyment, most of them will hav e mines laid on the first turn. This makes purchase of mines unnecessary unless you want a s**tload of mines.

[Frank W.]

Originally posted by gmenfan
In my opinion only, option 3 if he is to be allowed to call for reenforcements he should be allowed what ever he chooses. Remember he will be the one penalized in the end scoring for choosing this option in the first place. Sounds like something the 2 players would need to agree on it though.

you say, that the player who calls reinforcements first is the more penalized?? and i forgot about the penalicing (spelling?) you get, someone know this ??

i noticed in my 3 PBM games currently 2 of the 3 other players have called reinforcements quite early in the game, if it is true that "aux" units represent reinforcements.

thx.

frank

[Drex]

"Aux" units are reinforcements. the penalty comes in whenever you call for them. Its the same penalty regardless of when you call for them. Calling for reiforcments early in the game is not kosher although there is no way to prevent this unless you agree not to call for them before the halfway mark or some other limit. You could call for them early and hold on to them in case you need them but you would still incur the penalty.

[Frank W.]

Originally posted by Drex
"Aux" units are reinforcements. the penalty comes in whenever you call for them. Its the same penalty regardless of when you call for them. Calling for reiforcments early in the game is not kosher although there is no way to prevent this unless you agree not to call for them before the halfway mark or some other limit. You could call for them early and hold on to them in case you need them but you would still incur the penalty.

Thx Drex,

i think these ppl. bought the re. so early to get a early force overweight on one of the frontlines to overhelm my forces.

in one of these games i will certainly be a dead man as i choose the brits (which i never played before except in the desert 42/43)
in a delay mission in 44 against german 7200 to brits 4800 points or something.

couldn´t the british build a good tank?? or a good inf. AT weapon?? even their LMG (lewis/bren) is not as good as the MG34 or even 42. how have they won the war?

okay, the brits were my own choice, but i don´t think i have a chance in this one...

but i thought the brits are stubborn fighters at least...mhhh... seems i was wrong as several at-guns and inf units in cover in rough terrain are routed or retreating from some 81mm and 75mm shelling!! what the f... ??

[Drex]

The Brits are tough fighters but their equipment is lacking. Still the 17 pdr will kill anything the Germans have. Brits have a lot of different equipment types like the Krauts so they are fun to play anyway.

[Capt. Pixel]

Originally posted by VikingNo2
Okay here is my two cents

One last thing Capt P your time has come!


:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I gotta Save Game Slot with YOUR name on it!