Axis Tips?

[RCHarmon]

So far I like the game. I have been buying franks games for a long time now.

The AI is actually playing pretty well. The game (like all Frank Hunter games) is easy to learn and play. Usually, all his games have a bit of genius in them. I haven't found it yet, still looking.

As Allies I am doing pretty well. Its is with the Axis where I am a bit frustrated. I cannot stop the Allies. If I counter attack anywhere I lose a division, because it is so hard to disengage. To make a fighting retreat work you have to be able to counter attack.

I have tried delaying the Allies and I always get cut up. This last game I pulled back to just South of Rome and North of Naples. I dug in and set up. It took the allies one turn to drive back a very good division on the road to Rome. The division was in a fortification behind a river and they were smacked back pretty easily. Both sides lost 7 casualties each. The next turn the Ai blew a hole 36km wide and my whole line was in danger. Not enough units to have a reserve in order to counter attack, but like I said counter attacking only gets a division captured.

I need some tips. It would be nice to have a ARR showing a Axis defense.

[Michael T]

I agree its easy to get trapped as the German. I am not sure locking units in with zoc's is good. Units maybe should be able to withdraw on to friendly units even when zoc'd in. Once a German gets zoc lock its doomed as is.

[FrankHunter]

In 1.01, a friendly adjacent unit negates enemy ZoCs for withdrawal or forced retreat purposes. So as long as you have adjacent support you'll be able to withdraw.

[tombo]

...i would like to suggest that a unit that voluntary withdraws a enemy unit ZOC receive a variable level of disruption if that unit has less strength then any adjacent enemy. Withdraw from contact wasn't easy in real life.

just 2Cents.

cheers

[Michael T]

In 1.01, a friendly adjacent unit negates enemy ZoCs for withdrawal or forced retreat purposes. So as long as you have adjacent support you'll be able to withdraw.

Excellent [:)]

[Tamas]

I just completed an Axis game in 1.01 (which is getting released today), stopping the Allies just short of Florence.

My focus was on a sustainable fighting retreat, basically. Also trying to figure out when did AI Allies hit the kind of harder supply periods that I have when I am playing Allies, and used those times (when I managed to rightly guess them), to build a more long-lasting defensive line. That was met with different levels of success.

I never tried to actually form a continuous line of units, except for one time, and that attempt was aborted quickly as I started to find myself out of position.
Instead, I tried to utilise ZOC, and have a sort of "2nd line of defense" which was more like a loose set of reserves units, placed a few hexes behind the anticipated Allied breakthrough.

I think the latter was the key, as although it was actually kind of rare to get an "attack successful" result when the Allies attacked a unit of mine, the losses in men and organization they caused was often enough to dislodge my guys, especially the red or black levelled ones. (top right corner icon, not combat supply, although CS is crucial as well). And when your guys retreat, low on combat supply, with losses, more or less ending up at a random place, you really need a couple of other units around to plug the hole with their ZOCs before the Allies flood through.

I think the winter of '44-45 hit the Allies hard supply-wise and that helped me greatly. Using the lull I formed two defensive lines (units in ZOC distance from each other), the second one on the west-east line of Florence with the first line being 3-4 hexes in front of it, mostly anchored on hills, building fortifications on clear terrain, and always placing clear terrain units behind rivers.
The two flanks of the first line were gradually chipped at, triggering some retreats from me, and in April a general Allied offensive started taking shape, evolving into a front-wide advance which was kind of scary, but 8th of May 1945 came around just as the offensive hit my second line.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: Tamas

I just completed an Axis game in 1.01 (which is getting released today), stopping the Allies just short of Florence.

I think the winter of '44-45 hit the Allies hard supply-wise and that helped me greatly.

This was pretty much what I saw in a playtest game just prior to release, playing as Germans against the Allied AI at advantage. There was steady pressure forcing me back slowly up until winter set in during December 1944, and then the Allies stalled. One of the Allied AI's weaknesses during that winter was not withdrawing units back to good supply, and unnecessarily losing several units. It's bad enough most good Allied units get withdrawn in 1944 to support D-Day and southern France; they can't afford to lose more. Supply problems really hamper those left to fight on. Perhaps German supply from Verona could maybe drop at some point in early 1945, maybe a 5 point reduction in January?, to help the Allies at the end game. Alternatively, there's the Main Front campaign that is more challenging up to winter '44-45, so either the Allies win it by then or not.

[Toby42]

ORIGINAL: Tamas

I just completed an Axis game in 1.01 (which is getting released today), stopping the Allies just short of Florence.

My focus was on a sustainable fighting retreat, basically. Also trying to figure out when did AI Allies hit the kind of harder supply periods that I have when I am playing Allies, and used those times (when I managed to rightly guess them), to build a more long-lasting defensive line. That was met with different levels of success.

I never tried to actually form a continuous line of units, except for one time, and that attempt was aborted quickly as I started to find myself out of position.
Instead, I tried to utilise ZOC, and have a sort of "2nd line of defense" which was more like a loose set of reserves units, placed a few hexes behind the anticipated Allied breakthrough.

I think the latter was the key, as although it was actually kind of rare to get an "attack successful" result when the Allies attacked a unit of mine, the losses in men and organization they caused was often enough to dislodge my guys, especially the red or black levelled ones. (top right corner icon, not combat supply, although CS is crucial as well). And when your guys retreat, low on combat supply, with losses, more or less ending up at a random place, you really need a couple of other units around to plug the hole with their ZOCs before the Allies flood through.

I think the winter of '44-45 hit the Allies hard supply-wise and that helped me greatly. Using the lull I formed two defensive lines (units in ZOC distance from each other), the second one on the west-east line of Florence with the first line being 3-4 hexes in front of it, mostly anchored on hills, building fortifications on clear terrain, and always placing clear terrain units behind rivers.
The two flanks of the first line were gradually chipped at, triggering some retreats from me, and in April a general Allied offensive started taking shape, evolving into a front-wide advance which was kind of scary, but 8th of May 1945 came around just as the offensive hit my second line.

So, has 1.01 been released yet?

[FrankHunter]

pzgndr, just wanted to add that as I mentioned on a different thread, I found a bug in the Allied AI's allocation of workers that has been fixed. The problem was as it advanced towards the Po it kept too many workers in the Naples/Taranto/Termoli ports and that left Ancona and Leghorn short of what they needed to supply into the mountains around Florence. The AI Allies are still going to be short resources in the winter of 44/45 but the extreme supply shortages should be done away with.

[RCHarmon]

I am still having trouble as Axis. I am playing the full Italian campaign. I cannot stop the Allies. I set up a line with intent to fall back slowly. My panzer troops are being decimated so I fall back faster. It almost comes to a rout. I get some infantry units up and set up the historical Gustav line. Two turns and there is a big hole in it. Every time I set up the Gustav line same thing. Two turns and it is over and I am in full retreat.

I cannot counter attack because my panzer units' replacements are to few.

As Allies it is pretty easy. Attack the Axis panzer units relentlessly. Never attack infantry. Replacements become scarce and the the panzer units are pummeled out of existence. After the first turns(maybe 10 or 12) don't worry about counter attacks because the Axis will be too weak to have any success.

In all my games (against AI) the Axis always take more casualties. If I play Axis or the AI does.


Some of my conclusions:

Axis should never counter attack except in rare situations. I don't like this. You need to be able to counter attack to pull off a proper fighting retreat.

Axis cannot stop Allies, Gustav line or not. Unhistorical. There is no need for Anzio because Gustav line can be broke in 2 or 3 turns. last game I played Gustav line was broke 4 turns after losing Naples and 2 turns of actual combat.

To hard to withdraw. I set up lines behind rivers usually. I have panzer units who cannot pull back because the Allies are able to cross a river and stop them. Not all the time, but enough times.

After winning a battle, there are times when my units retreat anyways. If they win they should stay.

Italy is supposed to be a defenders dream. I'm not seeing that.


I'm asking for help here. I always like Frank Hunter games and he usually gets the feel for them right. What do I need to be doing as Axis?

[pzgndr]

RCH, Tamas and I had similar campaign game results.  Playing Germans requires some extra patience.  You cannot stop the Allies, but you can make them pay more heavily by choosing good defensive terrain.  Winter is your friend, when Allies lose their airpower advantage and struggle more with supply.  So, trying to fight toe-to-toe during Fall 1943 doesn't work, you have to fall back to fortifications.  Winter is your chance to regroup.  In 1944, Allies have a short window before key units start getting withdrawn for France.  Try to hold Rome as long as possible, since you lose about 1/3 supply when Allies capture it.  Then later when winter weather sets in again, Germans can start regrouping again.  I can't speak of the latest changes Frank made and how it improves the Allies, but it should be more challenging now.  Tamas indicated he stopped the Allies short of Florence. In the pre-release version I had started going on the offensive in Spring 1945 and almost got in range of Rome before additional Allied units showed up.  I think it's better now.  Bottom line is that it is a long campaign so don't try being a hero in 1943.  Try extra hard not to lose units; it's easier to rebuild them than to rebuild them AND pay fuel cost to move them south. Hope this helps.

[FrankHunter]

RCH, what pzgndr said. On a tactical level try and maintain interlocking ZoCs so if a unit is forced to fall back the Allied advance is limited to a single hex. I actually avoid stacking most of the time when I'm defending. Maximize your use of terrain, use forts when possible and try and maintain high combat supply levels for your front line units. When you see a unit dropping to less than half its strength try and rotate that unit out of the line and replace it with a new one, even if you have to give up a hex.

I would add that you should try and hold Naples as long possible as the Allied supply situation improves markedly once that port falls.

[Tamas]

Regarding ports, I am not sure how much practical sense that made, but I did make a point of forcing the Allies to fight for every non-minor port, even if it meant risking a unit of mine being cut off and destroyed.

Why? Because it is a pain in the arse to wait until extensive damage to a port is repaired. It is probably not decisive, but the only thing the Allies have a worse time of (usually)than the Germans is supply routes. So I try to press that advantage this way.

[FrankHunter]

Good point

[RCHarmon]

Overall I really like the game. I just cannot play it as Axis anymore. I have a unit behind a river and I try to fallback and it just gets pummeled out of existence. I'll set up lines and at first contact try to fallback and always at least one unit is unable to fall back and it just gets pummeled to death. With a withdraw order the unit should be able to withdraw even if it has to fight first then withdraw.

As Allies it is good to play even against the AI. So I will keep playing it. As Axis I'm done.


I think the game needs two attack choices. One where you take the hex if won and another probing attack where the hex is not taken.
Units have to be able to withdraw. By the third attack they retreat after battle, but at this point they are just a fragment of a unit.
Some units retreat sideways. This places them in front of enemy units and then it is game over. Battles that are lost around Foggia the units retreat west????????

The supply model for the game is very good.

The game play is easy to understand (such as airpower, invasions, movement) It is easy to go through several units and order each as needed.

Combat I don't understand. I don't understand some results.


Like I said I like the game. It needs some tweeks.

[Michael T]

I am really looking forward to the France 44 game I must say

[Toby42]

ORIGINAL: RCH

Overall I really like the game. I just cannot play it as Axis anymore. I have a unit behind a river and I try to fallback and it just gets pummeled out of existence. I'll set up lines and at first contact try to fallback and always at least one unit is unable to fall back and it just gets pummeled to death. With a withdraw order the unit should be able to withdraw even if it has to fight first then withdraw.

As Allies it is good to play even against the AI. So I will keep playing it. As Axis I'm done.


I think the game needs two attack choices. One where you take the hex if won and another probing attack where the hex is not taken.
Units have to be able to withdraw. By the third attack they retreat after battle, but at this point they are just a fragment of a unit.
Some units retreat sideways. This places them in front of enemy units and then it is game over. Battles that are lost around Foggia the units retreat west????????

The supply model for the game is very good.

The game play is easy to understand (such as airpower, invasions, movement) It is easy to go through several units and order each as needed.

Combat I don't understand. I don't understand some results.


Like I said I like the game. It needs some tweeks.

I agree. I think that the combat module isn't right? Sometimes the defender wins a battle, but still retreats? And the Germans don't have any attack capability. They should be able to counter attack at times with effect. The game does need tweaked!

[FrankHunter]

RCH, the one problem has been fixed in 1.02

When a unit is behind a river you weren't seeing a "Withdraw" order. Just a regular movement order. This had the perverse effect that enemy units attacking the unit would make their attack before your unit could move. The fix is the restoration of the ability to withdraw which will allow the unit to move before its attacked.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: RCH
I have a unit behind a river and I try to fallback and it just gets pummeled out of existence. I'll set up lines and at first contact try to fallback and always at least one unit is unable to fall back and it just gets pummeled to death...

Combat I don't understand. I don't understand some results.

Just curious, when? 1943, before winter weather? This game is pretty unforgiving to the Germans if you play against the favored Allied AI. It took me several games of learning the hard way that you cannot fight and win against good Allied units with their air support in good weather, you just can't. In my last campaign game I only had about half a dozen German units totally eliminated. I was mostly able to fallback with units still intact, although badly beaten up, and would move weak units to the rear to slowly rebuild... waiting for winter...

As for combat results, I don't fully understand them either. It's too complicated to mentally estimate anything like in the good old days when you only had AFs and DFs, attacker/defender DRMs, and a CRT. This game really does put you more into the role of a C-in-C and you just have to go with your gut feeling on some things and hope for the best. Like in reality...

[stormbringer3]

Since 1.02 will help the Axis withdrawal issue, any thoughts as to when 1.02 will be released? The $10 Matrix discount makes me more tempted to buy and hope for continued improvements.