[FIXED B511] Sonar Detection issue

[mcp5500]

Attached you will find a word doc with 6 screen shots. The 688 is not picking up the sonar pulses through the convergence zone? The 688 detects the Oscar when the Oscar enters the 688's convergence zone but not the sonar? The Oscar is at 1640ft depth and speed is 22kts. Shouldn't the 688 pickup the sonar pulses first? The reference marks are one convergence zone separation (sprint and drift).The Oscar was doing 22 knots, I was doing 5 below the layer and the Oscar will kill you every time. If the 688 heard the Sonar first, like it should have, It would survive bu moving out of its active sonar range and came up behind him or the victor.

[mcp5500]

See picture. The Oscar,s sonar should have been detected by the 688 here.

[mikmykWS]

Could you please post the file? This really shows us whats going on.

The first attachment seems empty.

Thanks!

Mike

[mcp5500]

Sorry about that Mike. check it now.

[mikmykWS]

Thanks mcp5500 for your time and effort. I've built out a test file for D and Rag to look at and hopefully solve this issue.

Thanks!

Mike

[mcp5500]

Thanks Mike

[scouseern]

I can tell you right now, an Oscar 1 doing 22knts will NOT pick up another sub even transmitting active. The flow noise across the bow array will render passive effectively blind and reduce the active ranges to less than 2-3Kyds.

Also an LA boat with its array dangling below the layer as in this scenario would easily pick up a 22knt submarine, even if it wasn't transmitting active.

Hope this helps resolving this issue.

[mcp5500]

In the second USS Baltimore scenario, I want to put a LA class sub in the middle of the Soviets mad drive to the gap and into the North Atlantic. There are many scenarios out there that patray the battle at the gap. So would the soviets drive the Norwegian Sea w/ Active Sonar or Passive? They would make the drive in waves. Fist the SSNs and then the SSGNs. They have to move fast to get to the gap in large numbers as soon as possible before NATO closes it completely. They expect to take a hit at the gap but they would want to get 60-70% into the Atlantic. If they want to hold Iceland, they would have to commit these forces. If they did not take Iceland and they took a defensive posture to hold Norway, it is believed the subs would have stayed north to attack the NATO sub fleet as they drove north to attempt to clear the way for a carrier in the Norwegion sea to take back Norway. The carrier and tomahawk missiles would attempt to suppress air power from Norway and the peninsula .

[scouseern]

Submarines do not transmit active sonar as a rule. The only real exception to this rule is to confirm the FCS (Fire Control Solution) either just after firing or when prosecuting a valid target, this is because by firing you have already probably been counter-detected by your target due to your discharge transient.

Subs transiting in a war scenario would choose a medium between speed and risks to counter detection due to cavitation. They most certainly wouldn't transit around transmitting active sonar, its like hanging a big 'kill me please' sign around your neck.

The reality is fellas is that Submarine ASW is a close range, sphincter tightening experience. The RN Spearfish heavyweight torpedo only has a max range around the 15NM ballpark and its got the longest range of any sub launched torpedo. And when you consider the size of some areas that your subs are operating in it is not unreasonable to think of it as a finding a needle in a needle factory whilst blindfolded holding a live grenade.

ASW operations always have the following:

Helos and MPA = active / passive barrier searches using sonobuoys and dipping sonar
ASW capable skimmers (if its grey and it floats its a skimmer) = Patrol active bow and Towed array although some can be used as passive towed array long range.
Non ASW Skimmers = AAW Destroyers etc, these guys have a sonar, maybe even a ship launched torp, but they are not good for ASW, best used as platforms for refuelling your helo's

Submarines = Most important, stay passive!! if you transmit in a hostile ASW environment, your gonna get shot at. Use your allied aircraft and skimmers to do all the transmitting, go where their not, that's probably what your OPFOR sub is doing, avoiding all those transmissions. Stay quiet and at patrol speeds to avoid cavitation. your target will come to you.

Finally, in a Sub Vs Sub engagement whoever shoots first is usually the guy who gets to go home afterward.

Hope this helps.

[mcp5500]

I agree that a sub on sub action, active sonar would not be used; but, when you have 15 subs transiting the Norwegian Sea at one time, sonar from one sub, should be able to aid the other subs in the area by putting so much sound in the water, that it will expose an enemy sub to other subs, if not your own by creating holes in the water. It is not modeled here in CMANO. So when subs are acting in tangent, working together, that is a different scenario.

[Dimitris]

Added detection of active sonar by passive sonar sensors (other than AIRs) in Build 511. The usual restrictions (compatible frequency band, coverage arcs, propagation losses and their gazillion modifiers etc.) still apply.

[scouseern]

From experience, I've had about 10-15 warships and sonobuoys + dipping helo's all transmitting at me at once. you can differentiate between them all using even modestly outdated sonar intercept equipment - the 2019 PARIS dome on a Trafalgar class SSN dates from the 80's.

Helo's and aircraft do in fact work in tandem during ASW OPS, all there possible detections can and will be passed to friendly skimmers via datalinks.

Submarines cannot and indeed do not receive the active returns from any other source but themselves. They must transmit their own mainframe sonar to receive an echo.

The only other tactical data on possible contacts comes from comms at Periscope depth.

[mcp5500]

The Scenarios i am working on are from the 80s. Are you saying that a sub can not be revealed, by passive means, from the ping of a third party?

[CapnDarwin]

I'm thinking at best, if you could detect the bounced signal(s) from another sub, all you would be able to say is that there may be something else out there, but the where would be very hard to discern without some serious signal processing firepower. From your sub you could "locate" the pinging source(s) since they are making noise. Once there is more than one source the complexity to "see" the target would grow exponentially. I would also guess those kind of processing abilities are classified as to just how well they can read the environment.[;)]

[mikmykWS]

Hi guys

This was addressed today. You'll see the fix in the next release

We're still working on getting some strike editor things set but hopefully you'll see something soon.

Thanks!

Mike

[mcp5500]

Can't wait to try all these update. Thanks Mike