Fighter Combat

[Von Rom]

I'm curious as to what you all think about the fighter-to-fighter combat in v2.0 of UV.

As it stands right now, CAP or fighter-to-fighter combat is almost insignificant. For example, I had 40 Zeros tangle with 3 unescorted Dauntless bombers, and not only did these 3 American planes squeak by the Zeros, they even scored a hit on an IJN ship.

In most of the air-air combat I have seen, there are almost no losses (or there might be one or two damaged or destroyed planes) to either the Americans or Japanese, even when 20 Zeros tangle with 3 Aircobras.

In v2.0, it seems that AA is far more to be feared than other fighters. If that is the case, then why even escort bombers at all?

Like many of you, I have read a lot about the Pacific War, and in that reading, I have come across many air battles where fighters (from both sides) played a significant role against enemy fighters and bombers. How else did fighter pilots become ACES?

Here are just a couple of examples about historic air battles from the campaign for Guadalcanal:

1) The next raid on January 27th, to continue the feint, was the responsibility of the Japanese Army's 6th Air Division. Nine "Lily" twin-engined light bombers shepherded by no less than 74 Ki-43 "Oscar" fighters took to the air in the northern Solomons. These planes were preceded by 2 Ki-46 "Dinah" reconnaissance planes which hopefully would be able to give an accurate picture of the day's activities. 28 American planes rose to meet the challenge and the two fighter groups met over the Lunga area.

The battle continued as the "Oscars" had to fight off the Americans until they were half-way home. One American plane did run out of gas and 4 were lost with 2 damaged beyond repair. The Japanese lost 6 fighter planes but while the fighters battled, the bombers dumped their bombs on the American positions along the coast but there was little damage. The Japanese postponed the third raid, slated for the 29th, recognizing that the air superiority campaign had not materialized.

2) Aboard the Chicago, the crew watched as if witnessing their own execution as eleven Bettys bore in from just forward of the starboard beam. Two Wildcats, after pushing their speed to the limits, arrived from the Enterprise and tried to intercept the Bettys as they made their run. Japanese pilots and the crews of the bombers watched as the Wildcats bore in and saw three of their number burst into flames and plow into the sea. They had been witness to the bomber that had caught fire and then turned to center its attack on the LaVallette.

Two more Bettys were hit by antiaircraft fire and were downed. As the remaining Bettys emerged from the far side of the ship formation, the Wildcats flamed another pair. The four remaining Bettys turned to limp back to base, three with only one engine. But five torpedoes were off and running with their wakes pointing toward the Chicago.

The Japanese losses for their involvement were nine of the twelve Bettys, a staggering loss.

3) February 1st was to be a red letter day in the annals of Guadalcanal. This was the day for the first run of the evacuation operation. Of course the Americans didn't know this but, they did know something was up and did know something had to be done. So they started the day with a flight of five B-17s with fighter escort raining down bombs on the Japanese base in the northern Solomons. The flight fended off five zeros and managed to head south undamaged but their bombs had accomplished little. But an angered bunch of pilots, 43 Zeros in all, lifted off just in time to run into four B-17s arriving without escort. Three of the B-17s were shot down in a hurry without much to show for their efforts. Additional air activities were in evidence the rest of the day with both sides slugging it out.

4) Did all of this activity have any effect on plans for the first run of rescue destroyers? It did not and the first run commenced on time at 1130 with twenty destroyers in two columns speeding down the slot. Coast Watchers sighted the destroyers at 1320 as they steamed by Vella LaVella. Henderson Field quickly put 92 planes in the air in two groups. The first group of 51 planes managed to sink one destroyer and down 7 of the 18 defending Zeros at a cost 4 planes and 2 damaged beyond repair.

The second group of 41 planes claimed two bomb hits and 10 Zeros with no losses. The remaining destroyers pushed on to face the next hurdle, the 11 PT Boats waiting off shore at Savo Island. Behind the PTs were the remaining three destroyers of Captain Briscoe's Cactus Strike force, Desron 21.

The above accounts were taken from:

http://home.earthlink.net/~ernieh1/PartThree.html

Also about the Wildcat:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/f4f.htm

[Nikademus]

Hi Von Rom

I havn't really had enough chance yet with 2.0 to give an informed opinion on the (if any) changes made to the air vs air model.

I had few complaints with the air model in 1.40 which seemed to work well in most situaitons. With 2.0.....need more time to look at it but i did notice something right away. Maybe it was because of the period of time in my campaign and maybe it was because Japanese airpower was already on the wane (no doubt thanks to my brilliant generalship ) but I did notice that the tendancy for small unescorted flights of bombers to slip in virtually scott free seemed to happen alot more than previously. It also seemed like fighter vs fighter was a bit more indecisive too. maybe it was just the effect of the slowing of the pace a bit with the extra msg's now displayed. Cant say for sure....need to observe it and play with it some more to see.

It should be noted though (once again) that Matrix has explained many many times that the total number of planes X, vs planes Y will almost never represent the true numbers in terms of engagement and that much will depend on routines that take into account position, radar or lack of it....fatique, morale, exp, leadership etc etc uber-etc. So while one sees "74 Ki-43" as a CAP to use an example, in actuality only 24 might be in position to attack the enemy. As for the intruders, unless radar is present, small numbers will have a greater chance to sneak in and do their business vs a larger strike.

I suppose the best way to determine if things got over-tweaked in 2.0 is to see if the above examples happen all or most of the time vs a greater varience. I.E., do small 3 plane bomber elements always slip through the cracks, or does the CAP at least semi-routinely punish such brazen tactics such as going in without escort?

Do CAP's "never" get a good bite into enemy formations, even if low on escorts? or do they occasionally get in and do their business?

We'll need many many more testings before one can conclude that anything, if anything got broke in the latest patch.

[HARD_SARGE]

Hi Niki
well again, 2.0 patch, but old OB, I have not seen much action in the air at all, which lets see, I took some notes, in my game patch came out about 11-15-42, had a save at 11-22-42, so started up a new save to keep that one, once a month had gone by, could look at the numbers

US lost 42 planes in the air, 3 on the ground (BB raid we have talked about) 52 to flak and 95 to op

JP lost 108 planes in the air, 103 on the ground, 49 to flak and 27 to op

so, we are talking heavy raids on Rabaul and Shortland (70 B-26's, 50 B-17's)

strange one, is I got Lr Cap over both bases and Kavang, for a month I have intercepted transports, with not one kill for the whole month (during turn I get the message that I did intercept transports, end of turn check losses and no transports lost)

the JP have sent out raids to my CV's and other TF's, seen 12 Zeros and 3 Vals attack my CV TF, 70 F4F's on cap, no losses either side, 3 vals lost to flak

6 Nells from Truk, attack transport fleet, 15 P-40's on cap, no losses, 1 lost to flak, 5 damaged
put another squadron on Lr Cap for that base, 9 Nell's came in, 20 + P-40's on Cap, no losses, damage and losses to flak

a good chunk of the JP losses in the air seem to come from the defending bombers, more then from the fighters

not sure if this is good test or results, the JP are on the defence, lots of the battles are 40-60 Allied fighters in the air and 3 to 6 JP defending (more planes in the air, maybe more losses, the game does seem to give the small groups better exscape odds)

HARD_Sarge

ahhh, I got Buka, Boris, Gasmata, Lae, Buna , so got plenty of bases close to the front, that can put up fighters or bombers onto the bases the JP have Planes on (it had Oscars on Wewak, but has pulled them out, thinking they went to Rebaul)

Shortland is being attack by 1 P-400 and 3 P-39's squadrons that are Strafen the base at 100 ft, lot of the ground losses have come from here

[CapAndGown]

One oddity I have seen is that Naval attacks against PM seem to be less effected by CAP than port or airfield attacks. My results against jap airfield and port attacks seem to do rather well as far as hitting the bombers (as well as can be expected from a bunch of cobras ), but when the japs fly in against one of transort TFs, it seems like I don't do nearly as well. Could just be a random thing, however, since I haven't had that many naval attacks against PM.

[Von Rom]

Originally posted by HARD_SARGE
Hi Niki
well again, 2.0 patch, but old OB, I have not seen much action in the air at all, which lets see, I took some notes, in my game patch came out about 11-15-42, had a save at 11-22-42, so started up a new save to keep that one, once a month had gone by, could look at the numbers

US lost 42 planes in the air, 3 on the ground (BB raid we have talked about) 52 to flak and 95 to op

JP lost 108 planes in the air, 103 on the ground, 49 to flak and 27 to op

so, we are talking heavy raids on Rabaul and Shortland (70 B-26's, 50 B-17's)

strange one, is I got Lr Cap over both bases and Kavang, for a month I have intercepted transports, with not one kill for the whole month (during turn I get the message that I did intercept transports, end of turn check losses and no transports lost)

the JP have sent out raids to my CV's and other TF's, seen 12 Zeros and 3 Vals attack my CV TF, 70 F4F's on cap, no losses either side, 3 vals lost to flak

6 Nells from Truk, attack transport fleet, 15 P-40's on cap, no losses, 1 lost to flak, 5 damaged
put another squadron on Lr Cap for that base, 9 Nell's came in, 20 + P-40's on Cap, no losses, damage and losses to flak

a good chunk of the JP losses in the air seem to come from the defending bombers, more then from the fighters

not sure if this is good test or results, the JP are on the defence, lots of the battles are 40-60 Allied fighters in the air and 3 to 6 JP defending (more planes in the air, maybe more losses, the game does seem to give the small groups better exscape odds)

HARD_Sarge

HARD_Sarge: Your examples are almost identical to the results that I have been getting in air combat. I will start saving my air-to-air combat reports and post them here. But your results are just routine examples of what I have consistently encountered.

It has been argued by many that in 1942, the A6M2 Zero was still the best fighter in the Pacific: it had speed; long-range; maneuverability; and was armed with 2 7.7-mm machine-guns and two 20-mm cannon. Although thin-skinned, and had problems in diving, it was still a fearsome plane.

Not only was the Zero a match or a better fighter than the Wildcat, Kittyhawk and Aircobra, but with its speed, and armed with 20-mm cannon, it could shoot down even the mighty B-17 Flying Fortress.

Yet, consistently, I have seen examples of 20 Zeros facing off against 3 Aircobras and 3 Kittyhawks, and only a single Aircobra is damaged. I have also encountered 3 Mitchells and 3 Marauders breeze through a Zero screen of 15 fighters. To see the Zero in action now (June, 1942), makes it almost an insignificant and redundant plane.

This means that when the Allies have a lot of bombers and are attacking IJN bases, then having Zero CAP defending those bases, will be almost redundant.

But this situation does not apply just to the Japanese fighter. Allied fighters are also impotent in the air. Air combat plays such a small role, that I have stopped escorting my Nells and Bettys on long-range bombing runs from Rabaul to Port Morseby. These bombers suffer more damage from Flak than they do from the Allied CAP.

I never had a problem with air-to-air combat in v1.40.

I have managed to work around this in my game. But Flak and AA are the plane-killers now; not the fighter.

Still a great game.

Cheers!

[Yamamoto]

Well that sucks. I think its more exciting to see planes going down in aire to air combat rather than to flak. CAP is a much more proactive defense while AA is sort of like a last ditch effort. I would like to see about 75% of the plane losses be to fighters and the remaining 25% be to AA. Otherwise it's not worth escorting bombers on long range strikes because you will lose mroe fighters to opperational losses than to combat.

Yamamoto

[Pawlock]

Originally posted by Von Rom
[B

But this situation does not just apply to the Japanese fighter. Allied fighters are also impotent in the air. Air combat plays such a small role, that I have stopped escorting my Nells and Bettys on long-range bombing runs from Rabaul to Port Morseby. These bombers suffer more damage from Flak than they do from the Allied CAP.

I have managed to work around this in my game. But Flak and AA are the plane-killers now; not the fighter. [/B]

I dont think the AI is very good at resting and rotating Squadrons in order to keep fatigue and morale high, but rest assurred against a moderatly capable human allied opponent your bombers more often than not unescorted would get massacred. When I defend PM I noramlly 4 to 5 squadrons at 90 plus morale and under 20 fatigue, with the remainder rotated out to Cooktown and Cairns to R&R.

[CapAndGown]

Originally posted by Pawlock


I dont think the AI is very good at resting and rotating Squadrons in order to keep fatigue and morale high, but rest assurred against a moderatly capable human allied opponent your bombers more often than not unescorted would get massacred. When I defend PM I noramlly 4 to 5 squadrons at 90 plus morale and under 20 fatigue, with the remainder rotated out to Cooktown and Cairns to R&R.

Do you have to move them to the rear to rest them? I dislike having squadrons that are fatigued transfer bases. I normally lose at least one plane when I do that.

[Pawlock]

Again so far I've seen nothing to say the Cap and air to air combat model is out of whack. I attach a copy of typical air battle couple turns after release of 2.0:

Air attack on TF, near Wunpuko at 51,51

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 97
G3M Nell x 11
G4M1 Betty x 40

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 54
P-39D Airacobra x 10
P-40E Kittyhawk x 13
P-40E Warhawk x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 27 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 7 damaged
G3M Nell x 6 destroyed
G3M Nell x 3 damaged
G4M1 Betty x 12 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 13 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 20 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 18 damaged
P-39D Airacobra x 8 destroyed
P-39D Airacobra x 3 damaged
P-40E Kittyhawk x 6 destroyed
P-40E Kittyhawk x 2 damaged
P-40E Warhawk x 5 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk x 13 damaged

LTJG V.Mikami of F2/Tainan Daitai is credited with kill number 5

Allied Ships
APD Colhoun
AK Betelgeuse
AP Orungal, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
APD Gregory
APD Stringham, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AP Ormsby, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Phelps
AP Fuller
DD Hull

Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
2 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
1 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
1 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
1 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
1 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet


Most of the IJN losses were air to air ,with if I remember correctly about 8 planes on IJN were lost to flak ,only because thier was a huge Surface Tf he did'nt spot escorting the transport convoy.

[Pawlock]

Originally posted by cap_and_gown


Do you have to move them to the rear to rest them? I dislike having squadrons that are fatigued transfer bases. I normally lose at least one plane when I do that.

I dont doubt I get a few losses due to moving, but in my considered opinion the losses are negligible compared to keeping fatigued/low morale squadrons in the vicinty. Me I normally leave them in C/town or Cairns and given time they recover nicely ,depending on thier commanders of course.
To me putting bad squadrons into the air is just feeding into the experience of your opponent, leaving them in area puts them at risk of being caught on ground resting (again lowering morale).

[Von Rom]

Originally posted by Pawlock


I dont think the AI is very good at resting and rotating Squadrons in order to keep fatigue and morale high, but rest assurred against a moderatly capable human allied opponent your bombers more often than not unescorted would get massacred. When I defend PM I noramlly 4 to 5 squadrons at 90 plus morale and under 20 fatigue, with the remainder rotated out to Cooktown and Cairns to R&R.

Pawlock: Are you using v2.0? I'm not sure whether it is fatigue or not, but I have had 15 Vals (unescorted) get through an Allied CAP of 10 Aircobras, while suffering just one or two damaged aircraft.

I sincerely hope that there is nothing wrong with the air combat routine, and that the results I have been getting are the result of pilot fatigue.

Hopefully, someone from Matrix can explain air combat and the results more fully.

Here are just a few examples of what I have encountered. Please note that most plane losses were due to ship AA:

Allied Air Attack on IJN Carrier TF:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 24

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 11
SBD Dauntless x 13

no losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 8 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 7 damaged

LCDR C. Fenton of VF-42 is KILLED

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho
CV Zuikaku

------------------------------------------------------------------
IJN Air Attack on Allied Carrier TF:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 15
D3A Val x 20
B5N Kate x 40

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val x 5 destroyed
D3A Val x 10 damaged
B5N Kate x 1 destroyed
B5N Kate x 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 1
DD Dewey, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Russell
CA Astoria

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Allied Air Attack on IJN Carrier TF:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 24

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 4
SBD Dauntless x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 8 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 24 damaged

LT K. Okajima of EII-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku
CV Zuikaku
CVL Shoho
CA Myoko

-------------------------------------------------------------------
IJN Air Attack on Allied Carrier TF:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 15
D3A Val x 27
B5N Kate x 35

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
D3A Val x 1 destroyed
D3A Val x 6 damaged
B5N Kate x 4 destroyed
B5N Kate x 10 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Hammann
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Anderson

------------------------------------------------------
Japanese Air attack against American Carriers:

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 11

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 38

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val x 11 destroyed
D3A Val x 3 damaged

NOTE: Almost all Vals were destroyed by ship AA

-------------------------------------------------------------
American Air attack against Japanese Carriers:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9
A6M3 Zero x 10

Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 4 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 10 damaged

PO1 R.Muranaka of AI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 2
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 1

NOTE: 15 SBD Dauntless encountered the Zeros, and 15 remained intact to attack the IJN carriers

----------------------------------------------------------
American Air attack against Japanese Carriers:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9
A6M3 Zero x 9

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 16
SBD Dauntless x 13
TBD Devastator x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 1 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 5 damaged
TBD Devastator x 1 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 11 damaged

LCDR R. Best of VB-6 is KILLED

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CA Mogami
CV Akagi, Torpedo hits 1

---------------------------------------------------------------
Japanese Air attack against American Carriers:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
A6M3 Zero x 14
D3A Val x 42
B5N Kate x 38

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 33

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
D3A Val x 6 destroyed
D3A Val x 7 damaged
B5N Kate x 11 destroyed
B5N Kate x 31 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 damaged

PO2 C.Murakami of AI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2

Allied Ships
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hutchins
DD Conyngham
DD Benham
DD MacDonough
CA San Francisco

-----------------------------------------------------------
Japanese Air attack against American Carriers:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5
D3A Val x 15
B5N Kate x 14

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 19

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate x 2 destroyed
B5N Kate x 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Hornet, on fire, heavy damage
CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD O'Brien



Cheers!

[Pawlock]

Yes my example was v2.0.

In my experience, both sides are always gonna get the occasional cases of complete flights slipping by the Cap. I tend to think though this is the exception rather than the rule.

So many things I would imagine could play a factor here, fatigue/morale/distances/weather/ Leaders etc . Also I would factor in this is nothing to do with 2.0 as it was apparent in 1.4 as well.

[Von Rom]

Originally posted by Pawlock
Yes my example was v2.0.

In my experience, both sides are always gonna get the occasional cases of complete flights slipping by the Cap. I tend to think though this is the exception rather than the rule.

So many things I would imagine could play a factor here, fatigue/morale/distances/weather/ Leaders etc . Also I would factor in this is nothing to do with 2.0 as it was apparent in 1.4 as well.

It would be interesting to know what fatigue level would render a fighter relatively useless in air combat.

Have any studies been done on pilot fatigue and its results during the Battle of Britain?

[Yamamoto]

Do we know for a fact if they changed any of the code for air combat or flak results in the last patch or is all of this just speculation?


Yamamoto