1.215 Lend Lease Bug

[Omnius]

I'm playing with 1.215 and have encountered a new lend please problem that I didn't see in 1.207. I'm having trouble getting all of my lend leased build points to go to the final destination even though there are plenty of convoy points, or none required. I had 1 build point not save properly to Moscow from America and 1 lend lease build point from Italy to Germany go bad.

The problem I see is that the program is forcing too many build points to originate from a country's capital, thus screwing up their lend lease. I once was able to change the source of the build point but it didn't hold through to the next turn. I try to fix problems in the Preliminary Production Phase as the manual suggests. I found that while I can see the problem build point being lost in the country of origin I can't see it in the country receiving the lend leased build point.

I thought that 1.215 was supposed to fix production problems. I'm not using the oil rules or saving oil or build points. I found that I could not change the source of the lost build point on a reliable basis in the Preliminary Production Phase. I think I've tried in the Naval Movement Phase and can't remember if that was where I was able to change the source. What is maddening is to see the lost lend lease in the originating country screen but not the receiving nation's screen. Without being able to change location as the receiver because we can't see it that new change is actually a real pain until the fix is fixed so that we see the lost lend lease from both sides of the equation.

I am including a saved game file with 2 sets of lend lease problems. One is from the USA to the USSR and the other from Italy to Germany. I was really baffled by the Italian connection going south since the other 5 went smooth as silk and there was a valid rail line from Rome through Munich to Berlin. Once again it seems that the program is trying to send too many build points from the capital, well in excess of that capital's factories. I sure hope soon we'll be able to see both sides showing lost lend lease so we can fix both sides of the problem. We need to be able to switch the source more easily as the sender and we need to be able to see the lost lend lease as the receiver so we can switch destination as we wish.

The other thing I've been noticing is that while we see lend lease being "Lost" if convoy points are sunk we never see lend lease being actually sunk. I can always replace the sunk convoy points and regain the entire lend lease value. It looks like the function is not complete as it isn't showing us lend lease points lost during an attack on convoy points that get sunk. Some of those sunk convoy should lead to lost lend lease that can't be replaced by replacing convoy points. I hope we see this fix someday soon. Then sinking convoy points will really have their intended significance.

Omnius

[Centuur]

On that last point, I can only say: "it's the rules". In the boardgame if you have a convoy pipeline just before production, than you are OK. There is no penalty for losses of goods on convoys destroyed. I've seen a convoy line destroyed at the beginning of the turn and it was again up and running at the end of that same turn, having to effect to the production of the CW at all. So having a healthy reserve of convoy points available for Japan and the Wallies is very important...

[Centuur]

MWIF even freezes if I want to change anything with those build points being send. I don't think anybody here (I didn't too) did test this in a game without saving build or oil points being on.

There are to much optional rules around and combinations thereof to be able to test everything.... Thanks.

[Centuur]

Oops. It appears it is a Brute Force scenario playing... That's what gave the freeze. If I load the game in the right scenario folder, everything looks OK to me for the Axis.

It looks like Germany gets 5 BP in Berlin. That is OK, since Berlin contains 3 factories and together with 2 for being the capital makes it 5 (the maximum you can send to the city). Italy has only got 5 BP to send.

RAW:

Transport
During the production step, you transport the promised build points to
any city or major port in the recipient’s home country (Britain’s in the
case of the Commonwealth). You do this in exactly the same way as
you transport resources (see 13.6.1), except that you can also transport
an additional 2 build points to the capital and 1 to each other city and
major port cumulative, each turn (e.g. you could transport 6 build
points to London each turn; 2 for being the capital, 3 for the factories
and 1 for the major port in the hex). Promised build points that can’t
be transported are lost.

[Centuur]

Now, on the part of the USA sending build points to the USSR, it appears the program isn't able to find a convoy route into the USSR. That's strange, because there are unused convoys enough. I am not able to change this. Now that's a bug...

[Omnius]

Centuur,
You most definitely do not understand the problem. If Italy is shipping 6 build points and Germany only receives 5 then there is a problem. If the USA is shipping 4 build points to the USSR but only 3 are actually received then that's a problem. You obviously did not look at both sides of the equation.

You need to read and comprehend my comments before giving me a really lame set of replies denying the obvious bug I found. I suggest you go back and reread my original complaint about the build point shipping problem.

The problem is we see the Lost build point on the sending country's screen but we do not see it on the receiving country's screen. That is why you erroneously say that everything is cool with Germany. You totally missed looking at Italy to see it reports the Lost build point. Same with the USA and USSR.

I know you do more beta testing than I do on MWiF but I do have a lot of beta testing experience and I do know a bug when I see one. Give my bug reports a little more respect as I am trying to help improve the game and perhaps my play style is such that I'm seeing bugs you don't.

Omnius

[Omnius]

Centuur,
Finally thanks for finding there is a bug. I couldn't change the source of the resource being shipped. You're missing the point that there are too many build points being shipped from Washington or any capital and then it's heck trying to change that source. I did manage it once when it asked me if I wanted to change the source factory. I had it ask me another time but I messed up and said no and then could never get it to ask me again no mater how I tried to change the source.

The biggest problem is not being able to see the Lost build point from both countries. That's the real problem you keep ignoring. If you can't see the Lost build point as Germany then you can't change it's destination. So what excuse do you give for this lost build point since no convoys were involved? Once again that is a bug that needs to be fixed as railed BP's should never fail.

Omnius

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Centuur,
You most definitely do not understand the problem. If Italy is shipping 6 build points and Germany only receives 5 then there is a problem. If the USA is shipping 4 build points to the USSR but only 3 are actually received then that's a problem. You obviously did not look at both sides of the equation.

You need to read and comprehend my comments before giving me a really lame set of replies denying the obvious bug I found. I suggest you go back and reread my original complaint about the build point shipping problem.

The problem is we see the Lost build point on the sending country's screen but we do not see it on the receiving country's screen. That is why you erroneously say that everything is cool with Germany. You totally missed looking at Italy to see it reports the Lost build point. Same with the USA and USSR.

I know you do more beta testing than I do on MWiF but I do have a lot of beta testing experience and I do know a bug when I see one. Give my bug reports a little more respect as I am trying to help improve the game and perhaps my play style is such that I'm seeing bugs you don't.

Omnius

Perhaps if you would check the Italian production planning form. Then you would notice that Italy only has 3 resources. This means that there are 3 resources going to a factory. This gives 3 production points. The production multiplier of Italy is 1,75. That makes the sum 5,25 which rounds to 5 (and not to 6). Therefore NO bug there.

[Centuur]

The problem with the originating factory is indeed there (didn't notice it. I thought Washington would have three factories in it, as is with most capital cities of Major Power in the game). So there's indeed another bug there too.

[Omnius]

Centuur,
Sorry for being testy with you earlier about this. I hadn't smoked my California chill pill yet. Too much caffeine.

I am glad you looked at this again. I had been sending lots of build points with no problem in 1.207. When I started seeing this error in the new 1.215 public beta I at first didn't report it because my first problem I could fix by changing the source factory. However I saw it enough afterwards and couldn't fix the problem that I knew I had to post a bug report and good saved game file.

The problem is that Lost build points aren't being shown on both sides of the equation. I can simply click on the Lost text and get that filter on the originating side. No such luck on the receiving side. Makes me sweat out saving oil with 1.215 in a new game.

I also knew that there was no sub activity along the USA-USSR convoy line those turns so that all BP's shipped should have been received as I have more than enough CP's along the line no matter how many the program wastes zigzagging around.

I am wondering if this is the bug that prevented me from sending the build point automatically from Japan to the USA in my first Global War game back when MWiF first came out? I was using the oil and save rules then. I decided to dumb that down to better enjoy the Brute Force scenario.

Better get going I have another new bug report to post and then the war can continue.

Omnius

[Omnius]

Centuur,
I was remembering production from the turn before and pegged trade at 6. Good catch as Italian production dropped between turns. That wasn't an error of the program, merely user error.

Omnius

[Omnius]

Centuur,
Dang I shouldn't have deleted the Italy to Germany trade agreement the turn after Italy surrendered. I found that with German units holding Italian cities that Italian production revived and had 4 BP's that were ultimately wasted trying to build an infantry unit that I knew would never arrive as I captured Tirana and could force complete Italian surrender.

I also reduced the lend lease build point aid to the USSR to 2 and that turn no BP's were lost. I have been cranking up by BP lending to Britain and France and haven't seen any problems with them losing BP's. Perhaps it's only the USSR that is problematic. The USSR was the forst country I lent BP's to and perhaps because of this it send more BP's from Washington than Washington had factories. I cut off lend lease to the USSR to pump it up for France.

Omnius

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Centuur,
Dang I shouldn't have deleted the Italy to Germany trade agreement the turn after Italy surrendered. I found that with German units holding Italian cities that Italian production revived and had 4 BP's that were ultimately wasted trying to build an infantry unit that I knew would never arrive as I captured Tirana and could force complete Italian surrender.

I also reduced the lend lease build point aid to the USSR to 2 and that turn no BP's were lost. I have been cranking up by BP lending to Britain and France and haven't seen any problems with them losing BP's. Perhaps it's only the USSR that is problematic. The USSR was the forst country I lent BP's to and perhaps because of this it send more BP's from Washington than Washington had factories. I cut off lend lease to the USSR to pump it up for France.

Omnius

I haven't looked at your saved game yet, but ...

There are limits on how many resources/build points can be received in a port. If the Arctic is frozen, then only Murmansk might be available for receiving BPs.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Centuur,
Dang I shouldn't have deleted the Italy to Germany trade agreement the turn after Italy surrendered. I found that with German units holding Italian cities that Italian production revived and had 4 BP's that were ultimately wasted trying to build an infantry unit that I knew would never arrive as I captured Tirana and could force complete Italian surrender.

I also reduced the lend lease build point aid to the USSR to 2 and that turn no BP's were lost. I have been cranking up by BP lending to Britain and France and haven't seen any problems with them losing BP's. Perhaps it's only the USSR that is problematic. The USSR was the forst country I lent BP's to and perhaps because of this it send more BP's from Washington than Washington had factories. I cut off lend lease to the USSR to pump it up for France.

Omnius

I haven't looked at your saved game yet, but ...

There are limits on how many resources/build points can be received in a port. If the Arctic is frozen, then only Murmansk might be available for receiving BPs.

While there is a blizzard going on, Murmansk still should be able to handle the 4 build points send by the US...

[Omnius]

Shannon,
It's not the port capacity or even the weather. The problem has been that there is a problem sending BP's from the US to the USSR in the 1.215 version that was most definitely not there in 1.207. It kept trying to send too many BP's from Washington DC. On one happening I was able to change the source of the BP and that fixed the erroneous lost BP problem. When I reduced from 4 to 2 that was what reduced how many BP's were being sent from Washington DC. My fix had nothing to do with port capacity or weather, nor did my problem. I have not seen this problem between any two other countries. I'm sending France 12 BP's along with 5 to the CW and none are being lost.

Omnius

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Shannon,
It's not the port capacity or even the weather. The problem has been that there is a problem sending BP's from the US to the USSR in the 1.215 version that was most definitely not there in 1.207. It kept trying to send too many BP's from Washington DC. On one happening I was able to change the source of the BP and that fixed the erroneous lost BP problem. When I reduced from 4 to 2 that was what reduced how many BP's were being sent from Washington DC. My fix had nothing to do with port capacity or weather, nor did my problem. I have not seen this problem between any two other countries. I'm sending France 12 BP's along with 5 to the CW and none are being lost.

Omnius

I looked at your saved game. The reason the 4th BP does not reach the USSR is because of the port capacity in Murmansk. See page 101 of RAC. A side can only ship 5 resources into and/or out of each minor port. There are two oil points being sent from the USSR to Great Britain through Murmansk, reducing the remaining capacity to 3 for the BPs.

[Omnius]

Shannon,
Better get some new glasses because what you saw was definitely not there. The two oil resources are being shipped from the Commonwealth to France, not the USSR. Only the USA has a lend lease agreement with the USSR so it is most definitely not port capacity. Hmm maybe I need to look again to make sure my CW lend lease is going to France and not the USSR by mistake.

Just double checked my game and the trade agreement is with France for the oil. Better look harder at the Washington DC build send that is getting screwed up. This is a problem that was not in 1.207, this only started after I uploaded 1.215. The program tries to send more builds from Washington than it has factories and then gives a lost resource report. On one occasion I could reset the source factory and that fixed it once but it reared it's ugly head again. Perhaps there's a problem when going from 2 BP's to 4 and then it tries to send another BP from Washington but it's already sent it's 2.

Omnius

[paulderynck]

I've been looking at your game and see the issue. What's happening is the program found a route for 2 of the CW-owned (not lent) oil in Iraq and Persia to go to factories in the UK via Murmansk.

It looks like the problem is the limit of 5 resources/BPs in/out for the ice-free minor port of Murmansk combined with this.

To fix this you might have to just store those two oil resources in close by locations, or (and I haven't looked to see if this can be done right away) hopefully default them to take some other route.

[joshuamnave]

Sounds like yet another argument (as if we needed another one) for manual overrides of the resource routine. But as long as Steve continues to insist that the production management interface is perfect, this will continue to be an ongoing issue.

[Numdydar]

You may not realize what a truly monumental task that would be to actually code. Yes it seems so easy, but to take code that is this complex and then modify it to allow manual manipulation would take forever. And then other things would not get done.

Just something to think about.