H2h

Cruku · Post by **Cruku** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 10:51 pm

What is it??? I am a newbie(downloaded the game 2 days ago) and I haven't found out what it means...?

chief · Post by **chief** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:32 pm

Cruku: H2H means Head to Head and is a form of PBEM game where two adversaries can fight toe to toe, v ice turn by turn as in PBEM. It has modified OOBs and cannot be interchanged or played against players with SPWAW ver. 7.1. Both H2H players must have the H2H version. Personally I find it the way to go, even against the AI. You'll find new scenarios and campaigns in this forum written especially for H2H.

Welcome to the forum, happy hunting, welcome to the madness known as SPWAW:D

M4Jess · Post by **M4Jess** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 12:07 am

Welcome Cruku....now I must kill you

just kidding...kind of

go here for H2H...but DONT COPY OVER YOUR FILES!!! COPY THE WHOLE GAME and load the H2H in there!

http://redleg.homestead.com/

M4 Jess~Gives a warm welcome

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 12:21 am

Question Remaining Unanswered: What is it about H2H that makes it superior for SOLO play against the AI? If the mech.exe file has been changed, in what way has it been changed? Are the OOB's something I could not do on my own?

I understand the improvements for PBEM or Hotseat play, I haven't yet been educated as to why Leo's H2H is superior to solo play versus AI over the standard issue v7.1.

Please: I don't say it isn't. I am asking why it IS.

Boing

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:29 am

Originally posted by chief
...a form of PBEM game where two adversaries can fight toe to toe, vice turn by turn as in PBEM.

Now you're confusing me. How is "toe to toe" different from "turn by turn"?

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:52 am

Some of the changes in H2H sort of "jump out at you". That is, they are very easy to see - especially if you go to the German purchase screen.

Other changes are more subtle - they involve organizational changes to the OOBs, the addition of some things that are not available in regular SPWAW - such as ammo boxes in the purchase menu for all units (this makes them available for pbem but is also more convenient vs the AI). Some changes are cosmetic, involving sounds assigned to certain weapons.

For me, the game seems to play a bit better overall. Even against the AI. There are a few things I am not a big of but overall, I find H2H to be a very nice variant.

The omission of the (silly) casualty reports indicating that you hit an enemy at long range is the biggest advantage I see since there is no way that one would know the contents of those casualty reports. Obviously, that will cut out some of the recon by artillery or shooting into hexes to see if casualties are produced.

As time goes on, I find myself choosing H2H when it is time to play the game vs the AI.

For online or pbem, it is "the way to go". I doubt I will ever play another battle vs a human except in H2H.

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 6:37 pm

Originally posted by Bing
Question Remaining Unanswered: What is it about H2H that makes it superior for SOLO play against the AI? If the mech.exe file has been changed, in what way has it been changed? Are the OOB's something I could not do on my own?

I understand the improvements for PBEM or Hotseat play, I haven't yet been educated as to why Leo's H2H is superior to solo play versus AI over the standard issue v7.1.

Please: I don't say it isn't. I am asking why it IS.

Boing

Hi Bing! You can see a list of the changes at the download site. You probably could do the Oob's on your own, but why reinvent the wheel after Panzer Leo spent two years doing the H2H modifications? I always play versus the AI and just like it better, for numerous reasons. I'd suggest, if you have the hard drive space, installing H2H as a separate game and trying it. That's what made a believer of me.

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 7:22 pm

Originally posted by REMF

Hi Bing! You can see a list of the changes at the download site.

A very small and useless list, imo. One of the reasons why I won't touch the H&H even with a 10 foot pole is the unavailablility of *proper* list of changes *with* some explanations why the particular stat was changed.

Also it seems (based on the 'what do you play' thread) that vehicle prices have been altered only because the creator of the mod felt like it...perhaps he has tried to reflect the production capabilities with these changes..even more sad because the tanks have been valued after a certain system that was same to all tanks and countries...now a working system is broken.

Voriax

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 8:02 pm

I alter OOB's for the obvious reason: I want something in the game that isn't available through the "normal" OOB's. I don't know of anyone that has put everything into the OOB's - there will always be situations where the players will want something different.

I trust you are not really claiming that Leo has developed the perfect set of OOB's. If you are satisfied with what you have, that is fine and you can play that way. I prefer a dynamic OOB and will continue to pump the idea of the designer including OOB files in the scenario package. I don't see anyone doing this yet, but who knows, the idea may catch on in time.

Apparently not everyone agrees about "H2H" - I"m not knocking it, just saying I tried it and didn't care for it. Different folks, different strokes.

Bing

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:25 pm

Originally posted by Voriax

A very small and useless list, imo. One of the reasons why I won't touch the H&H even with a 10 foot pole is the unavailablility of *proper* list of changes *with* some explanations why the particular stat was changed.

Here's a bit more detailed list, I posted already several times, but thought was not needed on the download site...maybe helps you overcome your fear of touching it

anti aircraft arty redone (pricing and HE kill for multi barrels)

anti tank rifles have HE ammo (usually 20 shots)

infantry AT weapons are usable against infantry (PIAT, PzFaust,
PzSchreck)

Divebomber class (chances to hit for bombs on these
planes are increased)

Field Command Posts (work like the normal Command Posts
to stiffen up defences)

complete APCR ammo load revision (major armored battle influence !!!)

Personnel Shelter (shelter from arty for up to 13 men)

reworked Exp/Mor/Leadership ratings for the nations and years, closer to SP1

rate of fire for AT and tank guns increased by 1, to give lower
Exp crews a chance to hit something...

completely redone German OOB and Luftwaffe units in
Norway OOB from '41 on

decreased number of Molotovs in squads (except Finnish)

reworked Allied landing crafts (mainly corrected icons)

US paratroopers with 1919A4/6 MG in the squad

US PzSchreck and PzFaust in winter 44/45

Russian Guards Hvy tank formation

four different T-34 icons

reworked rocket artillery (ROF and costs)

"burning hexes" are burning a bit less (flame icons smaller)

new entrenchement graphics (infantry pits and few sand bags)

aircraft rockets now fired as set of 2 and reduced hit chances

white roofed winter buildings from Rockin' Harry (check "Ardennes" scenario)

no double appearance of German units because of camo anymore

improved Finnish OOB (I think it was from Jurkko ?,sorry when I mixed it up)

Warhorse's improved Minor Axis OOBs

reduced amount of PIAT available for UK standard infantry

Wurfrahmen only available in PzPionier formation

reworked German weapons availability by date (esp. PzFausts)

PzFaust ranges reduced (PzFaust 100 = 2 hexes)

new sounds (a lot taken from Colonel Blitz's excellent set)

machine guns reevaluated (large caliber MGs have reduced HE)

new icons for German vehicles (Panther, Elefant, Pz IV...)

US AT-rifle grenade common for infantry squads

infantry platoon and company HQ units added in most nations

Bazooka penetration reduced to 105 (that makes for 120-125mm in the game)

German 37mm AT gun reduced in range (performence esp. APCR was too high at longer ranges)

availability of Russian ATRs in formations reset (from early '42)

Russian PTRS AT rifle added

German MGs raised HE, reduced ammo

MGs increased in lethality by 1

complete artillery rework (costs, ROF, formations...)

I know you were asking for specific values, but as you may notice, several points adress whole sets of values and I simply don't have the time to write down everything...but if you have a question about the one or other, I can go into detail as much as you like...
Your basic point is obvious (I had my fingers in almost everything and you don't know if my changes are correct) and I can't help you there except in answering your questions, but first you have to ask something...the changes are so many, that I cannot put up a complete list.
I can ensure you, that two main factors were behind all decisions to alter what ever value:

-historical accuracy
-gaming balance (but only in terms of unit costs)

also in many decisions, I was not alone...I tried to absorb ideas from the community at the Forums and had also active support by numereous helpfull minds like Svennemir, Kevin and Warhorse, to name just a few...

so if you're interested in a changed value, feel free to ask...

Also it seems (based on the 'what do you play' thread) that vehicle prices have been altered only because the creator of the mod felt like it...perhaps he has tried to reflect the production capabilities with these changes..

Prices have been altered, true...but it's not smart to talk about something you haven't seen yourself... :rolleyes:

even more sad because the tanks have been valued after a certain system that was same to all tanks and countries...now a working system is broken.

The system is not unknown to me...do you know all the errors it included ? The system is still the base for the H2H prices...tweaks have been made to correct errors of a "working", but far from flawless system...you really should take a look yourself...

Originally posted by Bing

Apparently not everyone agrees about "H2H" - I"m not knocking it, just saying I tried it and didn't care for it. Different folks, different strokes.

Sure - if not, I would have invented the first perfect thing on earth

But I like to have feedback especially from guys who didn't like it(or just didn't care) after actually trying it...I tried to get a hold on a few, asking what in particular was disliked, but never got a real answer...so I hope I get at least now one or two comments, that go a bit deeper...

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:42 pm

Leo, thanks for the reply.

Dunno about errors in the pricing...I used to know the system back when there was the first oob revision going on...but as I got some 4000 emails related to it, I obviously have deleted them long time ago

More like a matter of how much weight should be given to a particular stat.

Could you perhaps email me just the oob's? Then I could do some comparisons without going through the hassle of installing another SPWAW for that...Though I pretty much fear that even if your mod is okay I'll probably tag it as 'unnecessary'....but perhaps I'll test it one day.

Voriax

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:55 pm

Originally posted by Voriax
Leo, thanks for the reply.

Dunno about errors in the pricing...I used to know the system back when there was the first oob revision going on...but as I got some 4000 emails related to it, I obviously have deleted them long time ago More like a matter of how much weight should be given to a particular stat.

Could you perhaps email me just the oob's? Then I could do some comparisons without going through the hassle of installing another SPWAW for that...Though I pretty much fear that even if your mod is okay I'll probably tag it as 'unnecessary'....but perhaps I'll test it one day.

Voriax

Here're the OOBs, although you miss the best - there're not many players that could resist the cool looks of the original pics for all units in the game

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:37 am

Originally posted by Panzer Leo

Here're the OOBs, although you miss the best - there're not many players that could resist the cool looks of the original pics for all units in the game

Considering I like to play ascii graphic games I'm not that much affected by eye candy

Voriax

Goblin · Post by **Goblin** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:02 am

Heya Leo,

I too was a reluctant downloader (just a coupla days ago, I must admit). While I think you have done many (MANY!) wonderful things with this mod, I do not like the price changes in several instances. The place I most noticed it was the German OOB. The tanks have been down-gunned, and prices for the light and medium tanks (which were already overpriced for their performance) actually went up. The heavier tanks increased also.

Orzel and I just played a couple of games Soviet/German 12/44. One game from each side. German tanks are too expensive when weighed against their effectiveness. Soviet tanks (I bought over 25 T34/85's in a 3220 point game, and had change left over) are very cheap, yet extremely effective.

I especially noticed this where the PzIV series is concerned. Extreme expense, moderate performance. Also, the T34 m43 for the Germans has a base price of 121 (IIRC) and for the Soviets 80 something. The Germans got it for free, why the difference? These prices are before the experience is factored in. Production should not be factored in, as I believe the game prices are to reflect game performance in large part.

Anyways, other than pricing, the mod rules, and is becoming my favorite. Very good job, and reason to be proud!

Goblin- A Goblin needs Panzer Coupons;)

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:39 am

Originally posted by Goblin
Heya Leo,

I too was a reluctant downloader (just a coupla days ago, I must admit). While I think you have done many (MANY!) wonderful things with this mod, I do not like the price changes in several instances. The place I most noticed it was the German OOB. They tanks have been down-gunned, and prices for the light and medium tanks (which were already overpriced for their performance) actually went up.

Orzel and I just played a couple of games Soviet/German 12/44. One game from each side. German tanks are too expensive when weighed against their effectiveness. Soviet tanks (I bought over 25 T34/85's in a 3220 point game, and had change left over) are very cheap, yet extremely effective.

I especially noticed this where the PzIV series is concerned. Extreme expense, moderate performance. Also, the T34 m43 for the Germans has a base price of 121 (IIRC) and for the Soviets 80 something. The Germans got it for free, why the difference? These prices are before the experience is factored in. Production should not be factored in, as I believe the game prices are to reflect game performance in large part.

Anyways, other than pricing, the mod rules, and is becoming my favorite. Very good job, and reason to be proud!

Goblin- A Goblin needs Panzer Coupons;)

Thanks, Goblin !

You hit the main point in terms of pricing and also the most drastic one...T-34s and PzIVs...

The costs are:

T-34/76m43 with APCR shots: 82
T-34/85 : 93
PzIVH : 117

The reason for the PzIV being priced higher then a T-34/85 are:

- the PzIVH enjoyes features, that do not primarely effect tank battle, like the side skirts (invulnerability to HEAT attacks from the sides), smoke dischargers and an AAMG
- the PzIVH has the higher leadership values for it's crew (going directly into hit chances), true costs are not accounting for (this is the case for all German tanks compared to Russian ones)
-the T-34/85 gets a bonus for extreme mass production (this bonus is applied only in a few extreme cases, like the T-34 and the Sherman, usually only in their home army)

ofcourse this is a good source for debating and I had quite a few about that...what it comes down to is either a pure technical based system, that would ignore some factors like the leadership values, or a tweaking of values mainly to force balancing and more historical troop compositions.
To guide players into buying historical forces was actually the main driving factor behind my decision to go with the bonus method, as it kind of is an extansion of the rarity system (but really only in a few cases)...this is also the reason, why T-34s are quite expensive for Germans...they were rare especially in the case of the model 41 being by far the best tank the Germans could get their hands on in the period it shows up...so in my approach, it does not matter, that the Russians get it cheap and the Germans have to pay 0 Reichsmark to build one, but it does matter, that everyone wanted to have it and only a few were available...
So my main intent was to very much limit the appearance of German T-34s (way further then the rarity could do), to get less games with these thingys showing up and therefore meet more historical setups...if you absolutely want to play a German T-34, you can, but it's something special and special means you have to pay for it

It is a basic philosophy, goingt through many alterations in H2H - you will also notice, that almost every uncommon unit has been banned from the German OOB - for exactly the same reasons...

But many players have different feelings about how to handle pricing approaches since the costs do exist...and it leaves much roo for interpretation and arguments

BTW, in terms of the German T-34s, I personally think I overstretched it a bit by 10pts or so and I would do it a bit different now... :rolleyes:

wulfir · Post by **wulfir** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:46 am

I've been toying around with H2H a bit and I like it plenty!

I only wish the original sieze of the Victory Hexes had been kept...

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:49 am

I've been told that it is possible to use the larger size v-hexes.

Since I like the small ones, I haven't tried it.

kevsharr · Post by **kevsharr** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:50 am

I personally prefer h2h, the more reallistic oob is one reason,I started a long camp. starting sept.39 and could'nt get any pzkw IV's which is historical,they were extremly rare at that time,plus I like the historical terminology for unit's in the selection screen especially for the german's and the Japanese.I look forward to more conversion's of v7.1 scen.but since I have 450 scen. in 7.1 I know it's going to be a long time.

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:51 am

I just now posted a H2H remake of Dombaas, Norway. Some of us are working on it. It does take time, though.

Goblin · Post by **Goblin** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:21 am

I understand now, Leo!

I do think most players look at points as a balancing factor however. If they say 'we each will use 2000 points', they think that they will be even as far as combat ability goes. With the 'bonus', it abstracts this. One player will get 2300 (or whatever) worth of Soviet equipment for his 2000, and the German player will get 1800 (or whatever) for his same 2000.

My T34/85's cost me less than 93, because of experience and morale. They are, regardless of that, killing machines. When you weigh in that I had 20 of them, plus 6 OT34/85's, while Orzel probably had half that many tanks, if that, then it seems like it is slightly unbalanced. Cost equals combat effectiveness to me. Not strategic cost/production.

It still rules a$$! LOVE the pics, and sound changes! LOVE the casualty reports being absent! LOVE...etc.

Goblin:)