Battle of the Bulge Opponent Wanted

[vahauser]

I want to play a series (4 or 5 battles) of PBEM games based on a Battle of the Bulge theme since the anniversary is only a week away.

Reply here or please email me at vahauser@aol.com.

Thanks,
Victor

[Gary Tatro]

I am pretty good. So if you would rather play someone else, I understand. Though I am not that great at playing the Germans. Well let me know. I have slots 7, 9 and 12 open and I have not played the senarios.

[vahauser]

Hi Gary,

My basic idea is:

Battle #1
German River Crossing vs. American Defend
20000 pts German(1) vs. 4000 pts American(2)
Night battle; Visibility = 2; Weather = 3; Length = 24, Large Map
German Troop Quality < 92; American Troop Quality < 72

Battle #2
German Advance vs. American Delay
20000 pts German(1) vs 8000 pts American(2)
Day battle; Visibility = 12; Weather = 4; Length = 24, Large Map
German Troop Quality < 92; American Troop Quality < 75

Battle #3
German Advance vs. American Delay
20000 pts German(1) vs 14000 pts American(2)
Day battle; Visibility = 16; Weather = 3; Length = 24, Large Map
German Troop Quality < 92; American Troop Quality < 78

Battle #4
Meeting Engagement
20000 pts German(2) vs 20000 pts American(1)
Day Battle; Visibility = 30; Weather = 1; Length = 24, Large Map
German Troop Quality < 92; American Troop Quality < 82

Battle #5
American Advance vs German Delay
20000 pts American(1) vs 12000 pts German(2)
Day Battle; Visibility = 20; Weather = 2; Length = 24, Large Map
German Troop Quality < 82; American Troop Quality < 82

Initial Conditions would be similar to those I used in my recent games with M4 Jess, with some special conditions for each battle.

How does this sound for starters?

--Victor

[Gary Tatro]

Well I guess I could try to play the Americans otherwise the battles are just too large for me.
I think that things are definetly scewed towards the Germans. Due to not only the experience level but also the points.
In a human Vs human game a defend the point scale is 2 to 1 normally you currently have 5 to 1. In a delay action the points are ussually 3 to 2 you currently have them at 5 to 2 for the second and close to 3 to 2 for the third battle.
These ratios are taking in the normal settings on SPWAW where the Germans at there prime have a 85% experiance level.
So slaughter comes to mind when I think about the first two senarios.
Now I am not complaining I just was not sure if you were aware of these things. I am intrigued by a challenge, but I am not sure if I could even be a challenge with this set up.

Some things that might balance the point and experience spread would be, time limits on the game and VH's. Say reduceing battle one to 10 turns with 15-VH worth 1000 points each, battle 2 to 15 turns with 15-VH worth 50 points each turn and 6-VH worth 1000 points each, I think battle three seems appropriate (though the Americans should get some air to make up for the German experience), battles 4 and 5 seam reasonable but again I think the USA should get air to balance German experience factors.

During the whole engagement Germany should not get any air. Neither USA or German should get any infiltrators, air drops, or rockets. I believe historically that is what happened.

Also for battles 3-5 I would recommend a map one size larger than the Large map.

[vahauser]

Hi Gary,

You made some excellent points. I hadn't gone into any of the special conditions for any of the battles because I just wanted to get the ball rolling so to speak.

I have studied this battle for 20 years and so am very familiar with most of the particulars. But I also realize that this is a game and not a re-creation of the historical event.

I had envisioned no air for either side during the first 3 battles to simulate weather conditions from Dec 16 through Dec 24. Naturally the Americans would get abundant air during battle #4 to simulate the conditions that occurred on and after Dec 25. The Americans would also get air strikes during battle #5 although not quite the amount available to them in battle #4 representing the American fight to eliminate the Bulge (from late Dec to mid Jan).

As for artillery, the Germans threw literally everything they had into the initial assault. But most of that artillery had to be left behind as the Germans advanced. So my thought was to have some restriction as to quantity but not type for the first battle, with much stricter limits thereafter for the Germans. For the Americans the situation is pretty much the opposite with the first battle being the most restrictive for them.

Agreed that no airdrops (although the Germans did conduct a small drop that accomplished little) is okay. However, the Germans had prepared an extensive infiltration plan using teams trained by the nefarious Otto Skorzeny. So I envisioned German infiltration allowed for the first battle.

The experience differential represents the fact that the Germans were sending the best of what they had left against a sector where most of the Americans were mainly green troops. However, as the battle wore on, higher quality American reinforcements continued to pour into the region.

Since battle #1 is a river crossing, I thought that the points difference should be greater than the standard 2-to-1. However, I'm willing to raise the American points to 6,000. I'm also willing to ensure that the map has only a few bridges to simulate the traffic jams that the Germans experienced. I'm also willing to ensure that many of the VHs are of the per-turn variety. That said, however, since there is no way to repair bridges in SPWAW, then the bridges must be "off-limits" to American attack, okay? I'm also willing to employ no Panther G UhU units even though there were some present at the battle.

Your thoughts?

--Victor

[vahauser]

Gary,

Here are my thoughts regarding game conditions common to all battles.

True Troop Cost = ON
Rarity = OFF
National Characteristics = ON
Historical Characteristics = OFF
Mines = ON (however, I don't think mines should be deployed initially in any battle with the possible exception of the first battle)
Limited Ammo = ON
Reduced Squads = OFF
Weapon Reliability = ON
Vehicle Reliability = ON
Command Control = ON
Limited Intel = ON
All Player Preferences set to 100%
Victory Frontage = ON

Your thoughts?
--Victor

[Gary Tatro]

Though with unlimited artillary I still think it will be slaughter, but now I am willing to give it a try.
As far as the experience was concerened I thought that the 101st Airborne was the spearhead and major defending army in the Ardenes during the Battle of the Bulge? (I just finished watching HBO's "Band of Brothers"-very good by the way). It looked to me that they had more experience then you are suggesting, but I have not done much reading on the battle. I did not know the first one was a river crossing. Do you have a group of maps that you want to use?

H2H or 7.1?
I think that I am ready to start you have thought this out more than I have. My e-mail address is tatrog@yahoo.com.

[Gary Tatro]

Originally posted by vahauser
Gary,

Here are my thoughts regarding game conditions common to all battles.

True Troop Cost = ON
Rarity = OFF
National Characteristics = ON
Historical Characteristics = OFF
Mines = ON (however, I don't think mines should be deployed initially in any battle with the possible exception of the first battle)
Limited Ammo = ON
Reduced Squads = OFF
Weapon Reliability = ON
Vehicle Reliability = ON
Command Control = ON
Limited Intel = ON
All Player Preferences set to 100%
Victory Frontage = ON

Your thoughts?
--Victor

Ok what is vicotory frontage?
If we are using specific experience won't that alter national char?
I would strongly suggest that some mines be allowed in delay's say a limit of 50 points worth.
And I would strongly suggest unlimited mines/obsticales for any defend. That is the biggest advantage of a defend.
Though I have only played with C&C once I could try it again. Would prefer to play without it though.

[vahauser]

Hi Gary,

I'm willing to adjust the points as follows.

Germans 20000 vs American 6000 battle 1
Germans 20000 vs American 10000 battle 2
Germans 20000 vs American 14000 battle 3
American 20000 vs German 20000 battle 4
American 20000 vs German 13000 battle 5

ARTILLERY (60mm and 50mm mortars never count agains the following restrictions)
Battle 1
German up to 4000 pts max, no caliber restriction, no airstikes
American up to 600 pts max, 107mm caliber restriction, no airstrikes

Battle 2
German up to 2000 pts, no offboard artillery, no airstrikes
American up to 1000 pts, 155mm caliber restriction, no airstrikes

Battle 3
German same as battle 2
American up to 1400 pts, 155mm caliber restriction, no airstrikes

Battle 4
German same as battle 2
American up to 3000 pts, 155mm caliber restriction, up to 10 airstrikes but no medium or heavy bombers

Battle 5
German up to 1300 pts, no offboard artillery, no airstrikes
American up to 4000 pts, no caliber restriction, up to 8 airstrikes but no medium or heavy bombers

Your thoughts?
Victor

P.S. The Battle of the Bulge was very big with more than 50 divisions involved. The 101st Airborne play a very famous and prominant role in the battle, but it was only a part of a much larger picture.

"A man that eloquent has to be saved." -- Gen. Patton, upon hearing about Gen. McCauliffe's reply to the German surrender demand at Bastogne.

[Gary Tatro]

Sounds good. I wonder have you ever tried to fit, 20K worth of points onto a large map.
Well I wanted a challenge. What about the other questions. And how do we score this?

[vahauser]

Hi Gary,

Victory Frontage is the thing that spreads out the forward Victory Clusters in Meeting Engagements.

We have to turn Historical Characteristics = OFF in order to set our own Troop Quality. Since we've both decided who will play what side, I will just go ahead and tell you that I will select Troop Quality = 91 for battles 1-4, and 81 for battle 5. You can decide on your Troop Qualities whenever you wish.

I really very much prefer to play with Command Control = ON. I'm very uncomfortable playing with Command Control = OFF.

Your suggestions regarding mines is okay with me.

Even though we are playing with Rarity = OFF, I will voluntarily not use Panther Uhus or Sturmtigers (no Sturmtigers were at the battle although there were a few Uhus). To maintain a semblance of historical accuracy, I request that you use no paratroops in battle 1 and a minimum of paratroops in battle 2 since airborne troops did not begin to arrive until well after the initial German attack, okay?

--Victor

[vahauser]

Gary,

National Characteristics are not affected by turning Historical Characteristics = OFF and setting our own Troop Qualities.

As far as "Victory" is concerned, I'm a believer in the "honor system" of victory. By that I mean that it is usually obvious if there is a winner or loser in a given battle because usually one player's morale will be broken at some point during the game. However, I'm more interested in the process of the battles than in the actual outcomes of each battle. We can write up DARs/AARs and that should give everybody a good idea of who is "winning" and "losing" at any given time. Also, I'm quite willing to switch sides and re-play the series with me as the Americans and you as the Germans if you want to following the conclusion of this one.

I don't have H2H so we need to play 7.1 since it's all I know, okay?

--Victor

P.S. Since I think we've gone over all the initial conditions that I can think of, then I can start getting this thing set up. My plan is to start play either Friday or Saturday, okay?

[Gary Tatro]

I do not have the foggest idea on how to set up way points, and rally points and all the special things you need for C&C. In the first two to three battles that would be fine since I will be defending most of the time but, it the latter battles I would not know how to move my troops. In the furture I would suggest that you specify C&C on in your first post since the difference is night and day. Most players play without C&C, I am Sorry about wasting your time.

[vahauser]

Gary,

You don't need any of that crap to use C&C. I never use that stuff. All you need is to set objectives. It's easy. I'm surprised at the number of you "veterans" who are incapable of using C&C... Oh well. If you change you mind, please let me know because I can set this up pretty quick.

Happy Gaming,
Victor

[Gary Tatro]

I will play but I will be asking a lot of question throughout our game. Set it up and send it over to me. In your first send make sure you remind me what all the special rules are. I would suggest one other. "No reinforcements" I do not think they were available. You have me e-mail address, I have slots 5, 6, 7, 9 and 12 open. Send it over and I will purchase and place.

[vahauser]

Hi Gary,

Actually, both sides continued to pour every available reinforcement they had into the battle. So having reinforcements would definitely be historical. Also, allowing reinforcements adds an element of uncertainty to play (and with fixed limits to artillery points, there is no confusion on that issue). On the whole, I lean towards wanting the option of reinforcements, but I don't care too much one way or the other. You make the final call on this one.

On the subject of C&C...
One of the best features of C&C is that artillery management becomes more "realistic". With C&C OFF, it is possible for a single unit to call in an entire artillery brigade. I suspect that this is one of the reasons that you guys fear large amounts of points spent on artillery. But with C&C ON, units are restricted in the amount of artillery they can control. I understand the idea of playing with C&C OFF when under the time pressure of online play, but in a PBEM format to me the advantages of C&C ON outweigh the disadvantages. I applaud your effort to play with C&C ON, Gary. Perhaps you can get M4 Jess to share his experience with you regarding his recent games against me and his efforts with C&C ON...

Expect the Battle 1 files sometime after supper (Texas time) on Friday evening. I'm pretty busy at work during the week.

--Victor

[Gary Tatro]

And in the mean time I guess I will have to get the manual out again and read up on C&C.

[M4Jess]

Sorry to jump in...

Gary,,,

4 way Moscow inner City Fight? H2H

(sorry to jump in:rolleyes: )

Jess

[Gary Tatro]

Is a 4-way like a 3-way just with three girls instead of 2?
I would think at your age you would not have the energy for these anymore!
Well sign me up I will play one of the Russian combatants.
Oh you will have to explain to me how this 4-way stuff works too.

[vahauser]

Let's get this show on the road!